In this episode, we take on the difficult topic of literacy education in the American juvenile justice system. Susan is joined by Hilderbrand Pelzer III, who discusses his experience as an educational leader in the Philadelphia prison system. Pelzer talks about what he saw and learned—and explains why he advocates for aspiring teachers to work with incarcerated youth. This passionate and moving discussion breaks down the myths surrounding literacy's relationship with juvenile incarceration and also leaves listeners with advice on how to become more involved in their own communities.
Show notes:
Quotes:
“Once we have our understanding and expectations, what are the opportunities we are going to put in place to help them thrive? It’s as simple as that. Expectations and opportunities.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
“Teacher preparation training should be [taking place] inside correctional settings. Why? Because inside correctional settings, you will see all the challenges that we talk about… [the teachers] will not run away from challenges. They will be able to understand, navigate, and already have a plan of action to help.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
“These are real stories about children living their [lives] unable to read. It’s not data. They’re telling you they’re in a situation of incarceration and they’ve figured that their life is over as a result of not being taught in school.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
“I said, ‘Well, I’m gonna be at the Philadelphia prison system,’ and he looked at me like my career was dead...not knowing that my career started in juvenile prisons. Going from this to that [felt] like, ‘I’m about to do something extraordinary.’” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
In this episode, we take on the difficult topic of literacy education in the American juvenile justice system. Susan is joined by Hilderbrand Pelzer III, who discusses his experience as an educational leader in the Philadelphia prison system. Pelzer talks about what he saw and learned—and explains why he advocates for aspiring teachers to work with incarcerated youth. This passionate and moving discussion breaks down the myths surrounding literacy's relationship with juvenile incarceration and also leaves listeners with advice on how to become more involved in their own communities.
Show notes:
Quotes:
“Once we have our understanding and expectations, what are the opportunities we are going to put in place to help them thrive? It’s as simple as that. Expectations and opportunities.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
“Teacher preparation training should be [taking place] inside correctional settings. Why? Because inside correctional settings, you will see all the challenges that we talk about… [the teachers] will not run away from challenges. They will be able to understand, navigate, and already have a plan of action to help.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
“These are real stories about children living their [lives] unable to read. It’s not data. They’re telling you they’re in a situation of incarceration and they’ve figured that their life is over as a result of not being taught in school.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
“I said, ‘Well, I’m gonna be at the Philadelphia prison system,’ and he looked at me like my career was dead...not knowing that my career started in juvenile prisons. Going from this to that [felt] like, ‘I’m about to do something extraordinary.’” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III
Juvenile justice education is an aspect of education that goes unrecognized and unnoticed.
Susan Lambert:This is Susan Lambert. Welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast from Amplify where the Science of Reading lives. This season, we've been tackling the hard stuff, taking on some of the most difficult challenges when it comes to literacy instruction. And on this episode, we're talking about literacy in the prison system. To unpack this, I'm joined by Hilderbrand Pelzer III. In more than three decades in education, Pelzer has served as an assistant regional superintendent, principal, assistant principal, and physical education teacher. Pelzer has directed educational programs in correctional facilities, and he wrote about his work inside the Philadelphia prison system in his book, Unlocking Potential: Organizing a School Inside a Prison. On this episode, Pelzer discusses the importance and challenge of providing high-quality literacy instruction inside a prison setting, and he also makes a case for having up-and-coming teachers work in correctional settings. Here's my conversation with Hilderbrand Pelzer III. I'm so excited to have Hilderbrand Pelzer III join us today. Hilderbrand, thank you so much for joining us.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Thank you. Pleasure being here.
Susan Lambert:I am really excited to bring your expertise and your story to our listeners, because I think it's quite an overlooked topic. But before we jump in, I would love if you could tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself and how literacy became important to you.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Absolutely. Again, good morning. Hilderbrand Pelzer III, born and raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I live with my wife and daughter outside of Philadelphia in Montgomery County. Come from a family of educators, in fact my mom is a retired principal and my dad is a retired guidance counselor, and my brother works in higher education in Texas. Education has always been a part of my life. But I did not aspire to become an educational leader or school leader or principal. I aspired to become , to work in sports management. I wanted to be a general manager or athletic director or coach or something like that, because I had a great love for basketball. My family is a basketball-driven family. My dad was a great athlete in his days. But it wasn't until I went to work after graduating from college, at a juvenile prison, and I was working as a physical education teacher and an athletic director and a basketball coach. And on days that the principal was absent from school, the assistant principal would take over, but he would ask me to join him, help him, support him. And at that time, I saw the students that I saw in the physical education setting, athletic setting, in the classroom settings. And they were the same students, but two different behaviors. And it was there that I realized that they struggled with learning. They had a fear of learning, an aversion toward learning, couldn't read, write, spell their names , some of 'em didn't know their birth dates and those type of things. And that inspired me, or pushed me, to think about whether I was going down the right path in sports management, or should I be in education. And after talking to people, getting some coaching, getting some wisdom and wise counsel from the principal and others, I decided to pursue a career in education administration.
Susan Lambert:Oh , that's amazing. So education is in your DNA, probably, right? And I do have a question about that. So you decided to take a position inside a prison as a basketball coach and, you know, helping the sport . How did that come about?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah, I needed a job. You know, I needed a job. I wanted to go back to school. In fact, I went back to school for my masters , started at Temple University in sports management before I eventually transferred to another university for education administration. But it was just in that setting that I learned so much. And the principal, after talking with him a lot about the dilemma I was seeing—
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:He encouraged me and told me how much I could impact kids if I pursued a career in education administration. So he actually said, "Do you wanna run a gym or do you wanna run a school?" And just running the school just sounded much , so much better than running a gym. So he put it like that to me. He put it where the goats could get it.
Susan Lambert:Well, the good news is, when you run a school, you can also run a gym because you can have the gym inside the school, right?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Absolutely.
Susan Lambert:Oh, that's great. You know, we hear a lot about connections between, you know, reading or dyslexia, incarceration. There's also a lot of misconceptions. I would love if you could talk a little bit about some of the misconceptions between that connection.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. So I definitely, and I always say this as a disclaimer, I'm not a reading expert or reading specialist or write any curriculum around reading. But I do understand that, what I observed was that without reading, without that important life skill, your life is gonna be very difficult. And so many black boys in particular were the students who I was seeing, most of, having this trouble. And so over the years as a school leader, I just made reading a part of the school plan and a part of what teachers had to understand, be trained around, think about when they're teaching students. And so just that experience of working with incarcerated youth drives my perspective of how I think about education. And so, over the years, I've been a school leader in high schools, alternative schools, schools for expelled students, a correctional setting, the Philadelphia prison system, and an elementary school. And I see the reading impact differently among all of those ranges, but particularly in an elementary level. I saw teachers who struggled with teaching reading. They did not want their students to be below basic or not on target or leaving their classrooms unable to read, but they were not prepared for the teaching of reading, the teaching of phonics, phonemic awareness, vocabulary development, all of those things, understanding fluency. And so I put a lot of effort with my leadership teams to help teachers get better with that. And then on the dyslexia side of things, I began to think about, were some of the challenges that kids were having in schools, was that because of the lack of awareness about dyslexia, or the lack of exposure and training to school professionals about dyslexia, myself included. And so I believe there are a number of students who did not thrive under my leadership because I was unaware of dyslexia or really how to go about the Science of Reading and implementing it. And so I just make that a part of my work, a part of what I do. And so, I've been able to not only help my own teachers, but I've been able to go out and speak and expose the connection or make the connection between children who are incarcerated, mostly because they cannot read. And that we don't want that to happen. So we have to focus on reading as a true school plan.
Susan Lambert:You know, I heard you talk in your , one of your TED Talks, and we'll link our listeners in the show notes to those TED Talks. I heard you directly address this idea of, well, the prison system figures out how many beds they need based on third-grade reading scores. That's a misconception, isn't it?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I , you know, I shared that in the TED Talk that my experience working inside of the fifth largest urban county jail system in the country, the Philadelphia prison system, there, at no time did anyone ever connect or ask me about cells and beds and intake as it related to reading scores. But when I look at research and I use research in my presentations, there are things like , when you look at disciplines, students who are handled or managed because of behavior issues. And we go down that path. Aavoiding class, sleeping in class, not being engaged. We focus on behavior and not come back to the point that maybe it's reading and teachers needing more support in reading. And so there's a lot of research that speaks to how we leave kids behind, because we don't focus enough on reading and reading skills.
Susan Lambert:Because some of these other behaviors then are sort of distractions from what the core issue is for them, and they don't know how to ask for that.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Distractions, and a lot of resources are driven towards behavior, whether that's positive behavior, relationships first. You know, we always talk about social emotional learning. All of these things are important. Behavior, health, but we need to kind of link it back to reading. 'Cause when you dig deeper and peel the onion a little bit more, you see that the child is really struggling with reading and they want to read.
Susan Lambert:One little question for you. I know you talk about , you got yourself trained in what it takes to read, too, right? Didn't you go through LETRS training? Is that right?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Absolutely. So what I did , I took my school through the reading shift, that's a term that we called it. And it was around the COVID, right before COVID, period, looking at data and seeing that we had low numbers of students at target in the K–5 space, but also in the K–2 space. And we, my leadership team and I, we really had a hard conversation with our teachers about what we're seeing and how we are responsible and we have to get better. And so it took a lot of emotional toll on some of the teachers to just be humble and vulnerable around the fact that they needed this learning. They needed this help. And we , working with our district and some other partners, we brought in LETRS for two years at the school. It wasn't something that was mandated on us or anything like that. We researched some organizations and we decided on LETRS. And then we implemented it for two years. And a number of teachers stuck with it, some did not, or they moved on, that type of thing. But when we look back at the data of the teachers who stuck with it and monitored and progress monitored their data from a full school year, we saw that those teachers had greater impact on reading for their kids.
Susan Lambert:That's amazing. What did you call it? The reading shift?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:The reading shift, we were going to have a reading shift. So everything was about reading , everything was about, you know, looking at student work, looking at things , the type of learning targets we were putting in front of kids , looking at our assessments, unpacking our assessments, putting our students in , looking at the data and working with them in small groups, engaging them in interventions and all of those type of things. But it was a heavy lift. But it's something that, as a leader, I just messaged it as, "We're going through this reading shift, it's going to be tough, but on the other side, we'll see better days and better results."
Susan Lambert:That's amazing. So a little segue here. You wrote this book called Unlocking Potential. It's really, it's really amazing. And again, we'll link our listeners in the show notes to this. What was your motivation to write this book?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Originally, the motivation was to help correctional educators. So if you read about schools inside of juvenile detention facilities or prisons , the trend is that they're unsuccessful. They don't perform. Kids are lagging in their cells . They're not getting enough school hours. So the book was about giving non-educators, but educators and folks who work in juvenile justice, the opportunity to see that you can be successful, students can be successful in an incarcerated setting. And so that was initially what the book was about, and is about, but over the years, 'cause the book has been out for many years now , and hearing from other readers and other people around the country, I've learned that people think about the school-to-prison pipeline by reading my book. People learn about school turnaround by reading my book. People learn about relationships with kids that are important and need to be had by reading my book. People think about reading. So it has touched more topics than I even imagined it would.
Susan Lambert:You talk a lot, too, about the value of this , uh, literacy education, or education in general, particularly literacy education in the correctional settings. Tell us a little bit more about that. Like, what's the big picture of what it takes to make students be successful there? Or why do you, are [you] so passionate about that within the incarcerated system ?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Well, because incarceration is really about security. We talk about rehabilitation, but it's really security and punishment. It's really about keeping others away from others. And so, in a correctional setting, particularly in the Philadelphia prison system, it was also about having enough space to educate the number of juvenile boys in particular who were incarcerated, having enough space to bring them to a location, to even educate them. It was about making certain that the teachers who were assigned there understood that they, too, had to understand curriculum, and they, too, had to be professionally developed. And they, too, had to be intentional about the learning of students who may not return home, but continue on to a state correctional institution for, you know, decades or for the rest of their life. And that they still, we still wanted them to grow up to be respectful young men. And so , for me, it was about logistics. It was about education. It was about thinking about students who had IEPs and was really about educating the prison community, the correctional officers, the wardens and others about the importance of their role and connection in making certain that education was really a rehabilitative tool.
Susan Lambert:That's pretty powerful. Any stories that you can recall in that?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah, I'll give you a great one. I'll give you two.
Susan Lambert:Awesome.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:One is, I was walking, and I shared this at my TED Talk, I was walking from one side of the Philadelphia Industrial Correctional Center. So the Philadelphia prison system has six correctional facilities. So it was really a prison industrial complex. But I was in one of the jails, and I was going from the minimum side, minimum security side, to the maximum security side. And I took a shortcut. You should never take a shortcut. Okay. But I took a shortcut , through the medical services unit. And when you take these shortcuts, you're bypassing some security measures. But I did it anyway. And out of nowhere, this—now, the Philadelphia prisoners is an adult facility, so the juveniles who were there are being tried as adults. Okay. So this adult inmate jumps out at me and he's screaming at me, yelling at me, so it seemed, and I was really nervous, scared. He was a big guy, large guy, deep voice. And he was asking for help. As I set up my nerves and myself, he was asking me for help. He was saying, Mr . Principal, I need your help. And when I listened to him and talked to him and asked him some probing questions, he was currently in the Hooked on Phonics program, and he wanted to get his GED. And in that moment, and even over time, at the time he was 55 years old, he was carrying around the burden of illiteracy for all of his life.
Susan Lambert:Oh, wow.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:And he was looking for the principal. He finally saw the principal and asked for help to help him with reading. And so when we talk about that connection from school to prison and reading, if we don't get reading right at the early age, that important life skill, that could be another story for other kids to become an adult, unable to read, still trying to learn how to read, but your life is behind bars. So that's just one story about the power of literacy.
Susan Lambert:Did he get his GED?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:He didn't get his GED , in, in that moment, but I got him enrolled to get his GED. So I worked with the phonics folks, the program that he was in, that was a different program than I was overseeing. y. But I made certain that whatever he had to do in that course, he was , fast tracked , so to speak, to the GED side, which he would have to take adult basic education classes first, and then build up those skills, to be able to take the GED.
Susan Lambert:Mm -hmm . Wow . That's great.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:And the other story is the power of education, you know , a social worker. So the Philadelphia prison system is a community, you know , people move about, they go to work, they go to the library, they go to faith-based places, they go get their hair cut, they go to recreation, all those things. And one day , a social worker came to my office and thanked me. And I just said, "No, not a problem. You're welcome." But it was something about her thank you that kind of stayed with me. So I tried to inquire, like with my GED examiners, like, "Why is she thanking me?" And they said, well, and they gave me the guy's name . They said, "Uou know , he was an inmate, he just got his GED." And I said, well, "Hundreds of others get their GED, so what , why is this one so special?" And so I inquired more, like, was his case in the news? Was he , you know, a security case, like what was going on? And I found out that he was an 18 year old who had just been sentenced to death. And he was going to be transferred from the Philadelphia prison system to a state correctional institution for death row inmates. And he, through his social worker, wanted to thank me for the opportunity to take his GED in a secured setting. 'Cause he couldn't move to the classes, but it was his last opportunity to make his mother proud of him.
Susan Lambert:Oh my gosh.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:And to make his family proud of him. And so I take that story and say, if someone can put their mind to education, although it was the situation he had himself in, but in that situation, then folks who are not incarcerated can still overcome challenges.
Susan Lambert:Wow . I don't even know how to ask a next question after that, because that's pretty powerful. But I do know that you talk a lot about, okay, so you come from a perspective that literacy is an important skill to develop in incarcerated youth and even adults. But you also say that there's a way that the public schools can help prevent that school-to-prison pipeline. And can you talk a little bit about what you think about that?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. Um, the training. So, to prevent students from going to jail, it's really about our expectations and opportunities. What are our expectations for students who struggle right in front of us? We see them struggling, we can handle it by behavior again, or we can handle it about being vulnerable, about what we have to get better with. And so what are our expectations for students who struggle? And then once we know that they're struggling and they're not proficient, they're not being successful in school, what are the opportunities to help them that we are putting in place? So it's really about expectations and opportunities. I don't wanna sidetrack, but I was talking to some employees who were cleaners. And I was talking to them about their connection to school, and they didn't understand what I was talking about. And I was telling 'em about space and conditions. As a cleaner, what spaces that children engage in are you responsible for? And what is that condition of that space as it results to your ability to make it clean, make it inviting, make it a space that children can thrive in. And so it really is about adults understanding what is our expectations. And what are we doing to make certain that these expectations come to fruition. Now, that sounds easier said than done. There are always challenges. There are always things that happen throughout the day at any school across the country. But I always leave audiences with, "What are our expectations for our most vulnerable, marginalized students who are English language learners, students who have IEPs , students who live in the foster care homes, students who have some diagnosed behavioral health situations, and our children who need adults to help them, once we have our understanding and expectations, what are the opportunities we're going to put in place to help them thrive?" And it's as simple as that. Expectations and opportunities.
Susan Lambert:Do you think, and this is, I know this is a hard question 'cause it's sort of general, and I don't mean it to be too general, but do you think that we have different expectations for different students? And what does it mean to have low expectations for the outcome of a student themselves?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yes. We have different expectations for different students. You know, that is a really serious topic and a hot topic. And one that I, I try my best to show folks that, if we're in a school community, then at some point we all have to come around to, you know, common expectations for our students. But people come from different walks of life in a school or organization, neighborhoods they were raised in versus the neighborhood they're working in , family culture versus this family culture, you know , immigrants families versus not immigrant families. So we all come from a different expectation. And so the leader is trying to, you know, best ensure that, [they're] using data so it's not personal, that we all get together and be on the same wavelength. And so yes, people come with different expectations. People come wanting for their kids, their students, what they want for their own child. And some come with not giving their students what they would give their child. And so that is real. It's happening every day in communities.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. I think a little bit about expectations too, is the line between expectations and protect. Sometimes we feel bad for students and wanna protect them from hurt or protect them from struggle. And we don't always give them the right kind of instruction because we wanna be protective.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:That's true. I hear teachers say that. I share this in my TED Talk and other presentations. As educators, we're the experts on education. So you have to put education and educating and lesson planning and planning and being intentional first. And there are going to be issues around home life, poverty, social economics, this parent's incarcerated, that you're not the expert in. But again, opportunities, who can we leverage or partner with as a school community to help us with those issues that we are not the experts in, so that opportunities continue to thrive? And so when teachers , and we've all done it, you know, I just feel so bad for this child, and I don't want to push this child because, you know, they're , when they get home, it's gonna be like this and it's gonna be like that. No, when you have that child, give that child everything you can give them , because it might be the only time they get it. And give them more. So when they get home, there's a diversion. There's some extended learning that they have to do. And then think about your partnership with that family. What can you help that family with? Like, can you help that family understand the curriculum? Can you help that family understand what the homework assignments are? Can you help that family help their child? And so how are we helping so others can help us with the problems that we're not the experts in?
Susan Lambert:Yeah. I like how you said that, that we're not the experts in, and there's some things we can't control. So that goes back to then teacher preparation, right? So, why it's so important. Talk a little bit about that training and why you see that that's so important.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:I think that , and this is a crazy idea, but I talk about it all the time, that teacher preparation training should be inside correctional settings. Why ? Because inside correctional settings, you'll see all the challenges that we talk about. Challenges of poverty, challenges of dysfunctional home lives, challenges of reading, challenges of not having relationships with, good relationships with adults. All of those challenges. And if you are able to at least, part of your teacher preparation curriculum can be , can include being exposed to those challenges, and learning how to navigate them , when a teacher graduates and aspires for a district school or whatever school they aspire to, and they get into a challenging school, a school that struggles with performance or a school that struggles with students, they will not run away from the challenges. They will be able to understand, navigate, and already have a plan of action to help. And so teacher preparation doesn't do enough of that setup . So we talk about student teaching and folks go out and they do their six weeks here and they do their six weeks there. But really putting aspiring teachers in a situation where they have to learn some valuable, tough skills about the type of students they may encounter when they go into that school district.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. You've been talking about this for a while . What kind of response have you gotten to that idea? Anybody take you up on that or...?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:You know, when I talk to folks, and I've talked to a few universities that have reached out, I've talked to folks who wanna work with universities in this area that have reached out. It always comes back to security, in my opinion. It always comes back to really a reluctancy to really go inside of a correctional setting to do exactly what I'm saying. And once folks can get over that , that these environments, yes, they're dangerous, but they're also communities. There are all types of people from different walks of life, and you can really make an impact with them. And so if folks can get beyond the security aspect of going into a facility, then something like that could thrive. I remember first going to the Philadelphia prison system as a principal when I had been a principal at other schools. And I told a friend of mine, he said, "Well, which school are you at now?" I said, "Well, I'm gonna be at the Philadelphia prison system." And he looked at me like my career was dead.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:I could still see his face, like "How did you go from this, to that?" Not knowing that my career started in juvenile prisons. So going from this to that was like, I'm about to do something extraordinary, you know? And so, folks can't get past going inside of a place that has barbed wires.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. It's, the fear is real, you know, I get it. We'll be right back. Hey, listeners, I know you love hearing about the latest research on early literacy for even more insights and best practices from education experts. Check out Amplify's two other podcasts, Math Teacher Lounge and Science Connections. Math Teacher Lounge is in the middle of a new season exploring all the fascinating research about math anxiety.
Math Teacher Lounge Guest 1:It's not just the case that people who are bad at math are anxious about it. It's actually that the anxiety itself can cause you to do worse in math.
Math Teacher Lounge Guest 2:One of the teachers that I worked with had done her student teaching with a teacher who had math anxiety and who never taught math. And so she entered her teaching career never having taught math before or seen it taught.
Susan Lambert:Meanwhile, Science Connections has been investigating science's status as the underdog.
Science Connections Guest 1:If you were to work it out, how many minutes of science an elementary teacher teaches per day. It's like 18 minutes for the lower elementary grades
Susan Lambert:And exploring the benefits that come with changing that.
Science Connections Guest 2:We started to see this trend of students communicating more in English because they were excited about the science that they had been learning.
Susan Lambert:That's what's happening right now on the current seasons of Math Teacher Lounge and Science Connections. Subscribe to both wherever you listen to this show. Now, back to Science of Reading: The Podcast. When you were a principal and working with those teachers, then inside the facility, what was that recruitment like? Or were you able to get teachers, and what was their tenure? Did they stay, did they leave?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. So you have what you have and what I mean by that is there were teachers there. And so what I saw in those teachers was potential, but what they did not have was curriculum understanding. They did not have intentional lesson planning understanding, they did not understand data and standards, you know, academic standards, you know , it was busy work. It was conversations, current events, that type of thing. And so children were not thriving. And so I used the teachers that I had, in other words, the resources that exist, invest in them. I had to make some classroom changes, like, "Okay, you're not gonna be in this classroom any longer with this group, but I need you over here." So you having those hard conversations about changes that I want to make, and then you have to sell the students on, "You're used to busy work, but now we getting ready to do some challenging work," and then get them on board. So I work with the staff and the team, I had made changes, messaged it with a vision and a plan, and folks came along, and we were able to create a school model that focused on what I called a cohort teaching model, where instead of this, 'cause space was limited, I needed teachers who, when we talk about recruiting, I needed teachers who could do reading and social studies, perhaps have some background in special education, that type of thing, so that kids could go between, small groups of kids, between a reading social studies teacher and a math and science teacher. And then I could get more bang for the spaces that I had in those places. And I would also implement classrooms on the housing units for the juveniles who could not come to the school for other reasons. And I would make spaces throughout the prison system, so that spaces that would've been recreational or would've been a visiting area, maybe, you know, I would get that space and make it a school space.
Susan Lambert:Hmm . Interesting. So you were talking a little bit about convincing the students that we're gonna go from busy work to doing, you know, things that are a little more rigorous. A lot of our listeners actually talk about challenges with older students, like helping older students be motivated to actually wanna go back and learn how to read and put the systems and structures in place. Can you talk a little bit about that with the students, the changing sort of expectations or rigor?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. I talk about Keenan. So Keenan is a student of mine who I've, I met him and spent maybe a month with him at the prison system. He was a student leader in correctional settings. Okay. So I , he's the student leader, means that he's running things. He's a big guy. Keenan's about 6'3" , 6'4". At the time, he was about 200-some-odd pounds, and he was 15 years old. And I was trying to share my vision about," I'm going to get technology, we're going to get this, we're going to get that, I'm gonna get new school furniture, we're going to make this a school." And he told me, in no, in his way, I'm not gonna say it here, but he said, "You're not gonna do anything for us." But he used some other language, some colorful language, 15 year old , challenging the principal, and he had all these other juveniles, you know, behind him . And so I had to show them, I had to model for them, that my word was good. Now, Keenan went on to serve 15 years. He was 15, he served 15 years, only knew him for a short time, but he always stayed on my mind. And the other students benefited from what he challenged me on because we made it a true academic-focused school inside of the correctional facility. But years later, Keenan reached out to me when he came out of state correctional facility. Now he's almost 30 at this time. He has now written a book, Unspoken Truth is the name of his book, and he is the example of making an impact on children.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:And so impact is, you know, it's not about data at this point or metrics or numbers at this point. It's about getting kids to believe in you. And then when Keenan reached out to me 15 years later, he talked to me about what I had said. And when he went to the state correctional facility, he looked for people like me. He looked for people who were into education, adults who were about teaching inmates and getting them to learn and get more education. And his life now is successful. And so it's about making an impact and reaching kids. And that's what we did. So we had those challenges, but it's really about having a vision, being able to articulate your vision to some of the toughest kids who, they were fearful of learning, they did not wanna learn. This was like, "What are you trying to get us to do? What potential are you talking about that we have?" And getting them to believe in themselves.
Susan Lambert:That's an incredible story. And I'm going to look that book up, Unspoken Truth.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Unspoken Truth. By Keenan Hudson. In fact , Keenan writes about me in his book!
Susan Lambert:Wow .
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:About turning around the facility and what I did for the facility and for him. And so I'm just so proud of him. And no one has ever written about me in a book.
Susan Lambert:That's pretty amazing. You and Keenan should be doing presentations together!
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yes, we should be. And in fact, this Saturday, we're doing one together. This will be our third one together.
Susan Lambert:That's amazing. Wow. And I'm sure you have many, many more stories that—
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:I do .
Susan Lambert:And of people that don't necessarily come back and thank you because they don't know how to find you or don't know how to reach you.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. Let me just share one more if I, if I could please.
Susan Lambert:Oh, absolutely.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:I'm on the housing unit in House of Correction, which is in a 18th-century-type facility, when you think of jails, bars, and key and no cameras and , dark spots and all that kind of stuff. But I go to visit, you know, I oftentimes went to visit the juveniles throughout the week, and every now and then, I would go on the weekends. And one of the young men, when I get there, the correctional officers, they tell me the kid''s name. They say , he wants to really see you. So I go to see him and he tells me, "Mr. Pelzer, I'm gonna quit school. And I know you've been really trying to get me to stay in school, but I'm gonna quit." I said, "Why are you going to quit? You know, don't quit." You know, I'm going through my spiel about, "Don't quit. Don't do that. You got potential." All of the things to kind of inspire him. He says, "Nah, you know, I'm 16 years old and I'm still on a first-grade level." This is , this is literacy now.
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:The students understood their plight, that adult inmate that I told you about. He understood his plight. And we , educators, teachers, we have to recognize kids who struggle and give them opportunities. And so I said to him, you know, almost begged him, "Don't do that. You know, we can do this, we can do that." He eventually was transferred, as many of them were, to state correctional facilities. And so I don't know what happened, you know? I don't know if I made an impact. I don't know if those words helped him or not, but right in that moment, again, that's literacy for me, that's reading for me. These are real stories about children living their life unable to read. It's not data. They're telling you. They're in a situation of incarceration, and they figured that their life is over as a result of not being taught in school.
Susan Lambert:Wow. And how many more students do we have that aren't incarcerated, that are struggling with the very same thing.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah. There are a lot. Yeah . You know, and as I said earlier, and I'll say again, you know, I've been able to help students, and I know I've also hurt students. You know, and that's something that, you know, is part of the journey, but it's like, what do you do about it? How do you make yourself better so that you don't hurt students by not knowing how to put the right instruction in front of them? That includes the type of teachers, the type of resources and all those type of things. And it's just something that schools, if they, you know, humble themselves to understand that it's about expectations and opportunities, we can help more kids.
Susan Lambert:Yeah, for sure. Your impact has been amazing. Your story is great. I'm sure we could talk many, many, many more stories, but I wonder as we close, if there's anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that you didn't get a chance to talk about? Any messages for them ?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yeah, so juvenile justice education is a perspective. It's an aspect of education that goes unrecognized and unnoticed. Many years ago when I received an award from the Council of the Great City Schools, and I met with some superintendents and chief academic officers, they did not even think about, until they heard my presentation, the students in their own districts, their own communities, who were incarcerated. Because when we talk about the school-to-prison pipeline, we talk about it just like it's a thing, but it's a real thing. And there is a prison side. No one talks about the prison side, like school-to-prison. So they're outta school, they dropped out, we forget about 'em , but they are lingering, lagging in an incarcerated setting, and they deserve a quality education, too. And so, educators who believe that all children can learn and that, you know, everything is all students, well, here's the challenge to them, then make it happen for all students, including the ones that, you know, society has thrown away. And so, starting my career in that setting, but transitioning through traditional high school and elementary school, and working at the district level as well, I keep that perspective with me. So when I visit classrooms and talk to students or hear with my third ear about different challenges, I'll always reflect back to what it could be if we don't get this right.
Susan Lambert:And what advice might you give to people in communities, to find out what that incarcerated system might look like in their own community, what's your advice for that?
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Visit. There's a facility, a juvenile justice, a family court, there are .those institutions in communities. Visit those communities, ask for a tour, ask about the school inside that setting, ask for a tour. You know, act like you're concerned about it and then make yourself act on that concern, because those facilities are there. So we talk about all the negative that's happening that gets a child there, whether it is school-to-prison or something that they did in the neighborhood, but if you really want to know about it, then access it, access that juvenile justice center, access that family court, access family court judges and folks like that. Make it a priority.
Susan Lambert:Hmm . That's great advice and a great challenge that we'll throw out there to our listeners in their communities about making a difference for those students that are sometimes forgotten.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Yes.
Susan Lambert:Well, Hilderbrand, thank you so much again for joining. Like I said, we're gonna link our listeners to all these great resources in the show notes. And we just appreciate your time.
Hilderbrand Pelzer III:Thank you so much. I am really excited and thank you a lot for thinking about me and thinking about this aspect of education, and allowing me to share some of my stories and experiences.
Susan Lambert:Absolutely. Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with award-winning educator and author Hilderbrand Pelzer III. We'll have a link in the show notes to his book, Unlocking Potential: Organizing A School Inside a Prison. Listeners, if you take Hilderbrand's advice and visit a juvenile justice center, we would love to hear about your experience. Tell us about it in our Facebook discussion group, Science of Reading: The Community. Science of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify. For more information on how Amplify leverages the Science of Reading, go to amplify.com/ck. Listeners, we're going to be back in your feed in just one week with a special bonus episode. This one is all about integrating literacy instruction and math.
Next episode speaker:So we started asking ourselves what would happen if we considered any story a chance to engage as mathematical sense makers .
Susan Lambert:Thanks so much for listening.