Here to continue our discussion on dyslexia from earlier episodes in the season is an all-time leading expert on the topic: Dr. Sally Shaywitz, Co-founder and Co-director of the Yale Center for Dyslexia and Creativity. This literacy legend shares how she came to study dyslexia, the story of her seminal Connecticut Longitudinal Study, and all she's learned from her years of dyslexia research. Shaywitz will cover some of the biggest myths about dyslexia and also explain the "sea of strengths" possessed by people with dyslexia.
Show notes:
Quotes:
"It's so important to screen, to learn early that you may be at risk and then to follow up with more testing that may confirm you're dyslexic. When you have something, but it doesn't have a name, it leads to anxiety." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz
"There are so many people who are slow readers who are brilliant thinkers. That's our 'sea of strengths' model." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz
"We are so genetically driven to speak ... but we're not genetically driven to read." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz
Here to continue our discussion on dyslexia from earlier episodes in the season is an all-time leading expert on the topic: Dr. Sally Shaywitz, Co-founder and Co-director of the Yale Center for Dyslexia and Creativity. This literacy legend shares how she came to study dyslexia, the story of her seminal Connecticut Longitudinal Study, and all she's learned from her years of dyslexia research. Shaywitz will cover some of the biggest myths about dyslexia and also explain the "sea of strengths" possessed by people with dyslexia.
Show notes:
Quotes:
"It's so important to screen, to learn early that you may be at risk and then to follow up with more testing that may confirm you're dyslexic. When you have something, but it doesn't have a name, it leads to anxiety." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz
"There are so many people who are slow readers who are brilliant thinkers. That's our 'sea of strengths' model." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz
"We are so genetically driven to speak ... but we're not genetically driven to read." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz
When you have something, but it doesn't have a name, it leads to anxiety.
Susan Lambert:This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast, from Amplify, where the Science of Reading lives. This season, we're tackling the hard stuff, taking on some of the most challenging issues when it comes to literacy instruction. As we mentioned on our last episode, listeners have been calling for more information and guidance on serving young people with dyslexia. So today, we're featuring one of the biggest figures in the world of dyslexia research: Dr. Sally Shaywitz, Audrey G. Ratner Professor in Learning Development at Yale University, and Co-founder and Co-director of the Yale Center for Dyslexia & Creativity. Author of the book Overcoming Dyslexia, Shaywitz began a seminal longitudinal study about dyslexia back in 1983, one that still continues to this day. Here's Dr. Sally Shaywitz. Dr. Sally Shaywitz, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode. It's an honor to have you.
Sally Shaywitz:It's a pleasure for me to be here. Thank you.
Susan Lambert:You have had such an influence in the field of dyslexia. I know our listeners are gonna be really interested in hearing your story, so I would love if you could share: How in the world did you start getting interested in dyslexia?
Sally Shaywitz:Oh, well, I think it all makes sense. I care about children, and particularly what drives their behavior. I'm a behavioral pediatrician , a professor at Yale Medical School, and I received many calls from parents, and very often those calls were about school. That's not a surprise.
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Sally Shaywitz:And about the child's reading and the parents' frustration at trying to communicate with the schools about their child's difficulties reading. Parents will say, "My child is not reading . She needs help now." And often the school will answer, "Oh, reading kicks in later."
Susan Lambert:Oh, yeah.
Sally Shaywitz:"You have to be patient and wait." Well, I think parents are patient, but it reaches a point where you say , "What's going on? And when will this kick in?" And this is what actually led to a longitudinal study. Parents would ask — and I can just hear them: "You know, I called the school and the school said, 'Oh, it's too early.' Or the school said, 'Oh, your child's a boy,' or 'has a late birthday,'" et cetera , et cetera. So parents became very frustrated. This sent me to look at the literature and say, "Well, what does the literature say? And you know what? It wasn't very helpful at all. So I, along with Dr. Bennett Shaywitz, decided, "Well, we need real facts. And let's do a longitudinal study, so we can find out how many, what the development is over time." And so this is how our Connecticut longitudinal study got started. And that has two components. It's an epidemiologic sample survey. Don't choke on those words. <laugh>
Susan Lambert:I was gonna say! What does that mean!? <Laugh>
Sally Shaywitz:It means we sampled the children from Connecticut and, you know, invited children who are entering kindergarten — this was in 1983 — boys and girls, to join our study. And we were very, very fortunate we were able to enroll ... you ready for this? 445 boys and girls.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Sally Shaywitz:And we have now been following them closely since 1983. That's 40 years. And going strong; going strong . So we started ... yeah, we started when they were in kindergarten. So we have all that early information. But every year, every year, we would evaluate them and test them to the current time . So now in 2023, we continue to monitor 363 boys and girls — or should I say men and women, at this point?
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Sally Shaywitz:Right. Right. And that's 82% of our original.
Susan Lambert:That's amazing.
Sally Shaywitz:And, you know , I'm a mother, a mother of three sons, and a grandmother. And so many of you who are listening to this have an interest in children, whether it's a parent, grandparent, teacher, et cetera. And you always wonder, you wanna do the best thing for your child.
Susan Lambert:That's right.
Sally Shaywitz:But the question is, what is the best thing? So our study, starting with children who are entering kindergarten and following for 40 years gives us incredible information. We have the predictors from early grades, so we can ask the question: What happened in early grades that is linked to positive outcomes? And less positive, because we have the outcome data as well. So this is very, very exciting. And we have such a large proportion of our students. So this study has given us new helpful information. So what we learned is that dyslexia is universal. It crosses racial, ethnic, socioeconomic boundaries, barriers. And if you ask people, "Well, how common is dyslexia?" Many times, "Oh, it's very rare because people who are dyslexic, they look like everybody else. They don't have any kind of identifying physical characteristics. They have good interpersonal relations." So you wouldn't suspect, "Oh, this person might be dyslexic." But what we did is examine carefully each person every year. So what we found is that dyslexia is common. How common? One in five children. That means every class has children who are struggling readers. And it used to be thought that dyslexia only affected boys . And what we found dyslexia affects both boys and girls. And that it's persistent. That it's lifelong. And because we have longitudinal data, we were able to determine when the achievement gap between typical and dyslexic readers occurs . And you know what we found?
Susan Lambert:What, what did you find?
Sally Shaywitz:It occurs as early as first grade.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Sally Shaywitz:And persists. That's really important. I'm looking at the slide now, because what that means is that we have to get to these children and identify them as dyslexic early on. 'Cause they're already at first grade.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. And so, just that myth. And let's talk a little bit about parents that call the school and say, and the school says, "Oh, well, they're gonna grow out of it." Or "It takes time." Your data actually show that that's not true. Right? That it's really important.
Sally Shaywitz:Exactly. And in fact, we took that data as an urgent call to action.
Susan Lambert:Tell me more about that.
Sally Shaywitz:That there's a need to identify children at risk for dyslexia early. So what what we did is we enlisted the child's teacher's insights about their students. And we worked and we developed an evidence-based — and we labeled it "dyslexia screen."
Susan Lambert:OK.
Sally Shaywitz:And , we're scientists, my spouse and myself. So we do research. And we also try to advocate for children who are dyslexic.
Susan Lambert:Yep . You mentioned — I do wanna insert this. You mentioned the name Bennett Shaywitz early in the interview here. And you're talking about your spouse, who is helping you with this research. So he's more than a colleague, isn't he? You two have been in this work together for years.
Sally Shaywitz:And we're still married. Imagine that.
Susan Lambert:<Laugh>
Sally Shaywitz:Yes. We've been married for quite a while. And we gained so much from working together, and appreciate each o ther's contributions.
Susan Lambert:For sure.
Sally Shaywitz:So we, we developed the Shaywitz Dyslexia Screen. And gave it to a publisher for them to distribute. The goal for a screener is to find children most at risk for dyslexia, to target them for extra help as early as possible.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. I would love if we could go back a little bit to talk about this Connecticut longitudinal study, because I think ... I don't know how many people are actually aware of it. And so let's talk about the study a little bit, and then we'll talk about how you've actually used part of this study for your book, Overcoming Dyslexia. But the study, you started this. ...
Sally Shaywitz:The study began in 1983.
Susan Lambert:And I would imagine the goals of the study at the beginning, in 1983, were a little bit different, and things have probably evolved over time. So, when you first started the study, what were some of the early things that you found out?
Sally Shaywitz:Well, we found out that it's pretty common. That it affects 20% of the children. We found out that it's very, very important to screen the children, because some of the children you wouldn't have known or guessed. And as we've gone on , we've discovered many more things. Like, dyslexia affects boys and girls. And that dyslexic children are intelligent. And, in fact, we developed the "Sea of Strengths" model. Because people see and are familiar — many people, anyway — with the difficulties in decoding, connecting the letters to the sounds of words, which affects reading. And, you know , we are genetically driven to speak. That's what being a person is. But we a re not genetically driven to read. So, reading becomes the big challenge. So, what do you have to do to read? And how can you help dyslexic children? So we do a great deal of research, and what we found is that yes, dyslexics have this weakness in attaching letters to sounds and decoding words. And that's pretty visible early on. But what we also discovered — and it's particularly more visible as the child develops — is that individuals who are dyslexic have a sea of strengths. And what do I mean by that? I mean that they have very significant strengths in higher-level cognitive thinking. In comprehension. Concept formation. Reasoning. Critical thinking. Vocabulary. Problem solving. Empathy. General knowledge and comprehension. So that becomes very important. And these are really important, higher-level cognitive skills that one doesn't notice automatically. And they're responsible for the success of many, many of those who are dyslexic.
Susan Lambert:And that sort of highlights the importance, then, of helping — and we're gonna come back to this, the instruction for dyslexic students — but helping them actually master the code, so that they can unlock that code to get to the meaning of the text. So for a dyslexic student, is this — help me if I'm saying this wrong — but for a dyslexic student, the most important thing is to support them in being automatic and unlocking that code, so that they can get to the text meaning, is that right?
Sally Shaywitz:Yeah.
Susan Lambert:And for a dyslexic, I think there's another myth too. For a dyslexic student, they need the same kind of instruction as a typical student. Right? But do they just need more ... they need more practice with that code? Am I getting that right?
Sally Shaywitz:Well, they need more special instruction.
Susan Lambert:And tell me me about what that would be like, what that special instruction is.
Sally Shaywitz:Well, what it is, it doesn't automatically come to them. So they need to know about letters and sounds and how they come together. They need to practice reading. And it's very important, for example ... in reading, it's very important to be able to read fluently.
Susan Lambert:Yeah .
Sally Shaywitz:That is, accurately, rapidly, and with understanding. But if you tell a child, "Oh, you go up to your room and read," that's not go nna g et them very far. With fluency, what you wa nna d o is, you wa nna h ave a c hild read aloud in front of someone. A parent, a teacher, a tutor. Who can then see how they do, and then comment, "Oh, I think yo u w e re s kipping words," or "You we re r eading a little too slow," or "Too fast." So when they have that kind of assistance, they really can improve th eir f luency.
Susan Lambert:And they need very explicit instruction and lots of practice with that, don't they?
Sally Shaywitz:Yeah.
Susan Lambert:OK. Sorry to interrupt you on the longitudinal study .
:No, that was a very good question. Thank you.
Susan Lambert:So, back to the longitudinal study. So, it's now 40 years later. We're in 2023. What kind of assessments do you do? Or what kind of data do you get from the participants that are still in t he study, as they're ... what, almost 50 years old! Right?
Sally Shaywitz:They're 45 now.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. OK.
Sally Shaywitz:And we get very good data . We get data on their thinking, on their intelligence, on their reading, and on their emotional wellbeing.
Susan Lambert:That's very amazing, that you've been able to keep that percentage of the participants still in the study, to look at that work. And I know, I'm guessing, you're not the only ones that look at that data and use that data to glean new learnings. Is that—
Sally Shaywitz:I hope so! <Laugh>
Susan Lambert:—true?
Sally Shaywitz:Because it has universal meaning, and I should mention, we had, fairly often, wonderful notes from the participants saying how happy they are to be in t he study, how they're happy they can help others. So we are just very, very happy. And so we now have a large proportion 40 years later. And it's really, really , helpful. It's also been very helpful to sort of do away with some of the myths in dyslexia, f or e xample.
Susan Lambert:I t hink, I think — some of those things, because I think I heard you say it was a little ... you know, one of the myths about boys. ...
Sally Shaywitz:Yes.
Susan Lambert:Are more boys than girls. But it's boys and girls equally. One of the myths was the youngness, right? Like, by first grade, we have to get those kids identified. And then did you say you learned that ... oh, the percentage of kids that actually have dyslexia is about 20%. Is there any other surprising findings that you've had?
Sally Shaywitz:Well, you know, some of the myths, I'll just mention them.
Susan Lambert:Yeah, please.
Sally Shaywitz:So we can get rid of them. < Laugh > O ne of the myths is people would often say, "Well, you know, you need your eyes to read. S o dyslexia must be visual."
Susan Lambert:Right.
Sally Shaywitz:It's not. Importantly, it involves the language system in the brain. And it's fortunate, because we do functional magnetic resonance imaging, and we c an see what areas of the brain l ight up. So that's very important. And it's the language reaches . And, people would think, "Oh, well, you outgrow it." We've now shown that it's persistent. And very importantly, that it's not related to intelligence, that you can be highly intelligent and still struggle to read . Is that helpful?
Susan Lambert:Very helpful. I just ... I love that myth about the eyes, because we still see sort of eye therapy come and go. People think it's a special kind of glasses that will help you with dyslexia. And that's not true.
Sally Shaywitz:I'm so glad you mentioned it, because it's totally not true. It's very much the language, the language system. And we have now — and by we, I mean we and other scientists — have been able to identify which areas of the brain are involved in reading. And what we see is that in dyslexia, the primary area, the area on the back and the left side of the brain, is not functioning efficiently . So that interferes with reading. The technical terms are "inefficient posterior reading systems." So what happens is dyslexic individuals rely on secondary systems. And when you do that, because your primary systems are not working efficiently, the dyslexic reader is forced to use ancillary or secondary systems. And you know what the problem then is?
Susan Lambert:No.
Sally Shaywitz:They're not automatic.
Susan Lambert:Ah, yes.
Sally Shaywitz:The result is slow, laborious reading. They're helpful because they allow you to do some reading , but it's laborious and slow.
Susan Lambert:Can that be changed with explicit instruction and practice?
Sally Shaywitz:Well, there are efforts going on that are attempting to do that. I think it can be improved. And the question is how much. And that is something we're learning about right now.
Susan Lambert:So when you first started your study, of course the brain imaging hadn't yet ... we didn't have it yet. Right? So at what part of this study did we start to use brain imaging to start to understand that? I don't even know the date on those, brain imaging.
Sally Shaywitz:I'm actually looking at Bennett Shaywitz for the answer.
Bennett Shaywitz:I can't hear the question.
Sally Shaywitz:Oh. When were people able to use brain imaging to address the issues in dyslexia?
Bennett Shaywitz:The late 1980s, early 1990s. Beginning then is when we started it.
Sally Shaywitz:Did you hear? The late 1980s and the early 1990s.
Susan Lambert:Yep.
Bennett Shaywitz:So non-invasive brain imaging was first used in 1972. This technology called CT, computerized tomography scanning. It was developed by a British scientist named Hounsfield. And you know why he was able to develop it?
Susan Lambert:No.
:He worked for a company called the Electronic Musical Instrument Company. And they were making so much money, because they represented the Beatles, that they allowed Hounsfield to have research money to develop this wonderful technology. And then after that, another technology came along in the late 1980s called Functional Magnetic ... well, first Magnetic Resonance Imaging, and then Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging. And they came along in the 1980s, 1990s, and used very commonly now,
Susan Lambert:Well, Sally, you can tell Bennett that was fascinating and very interesting.
Sally Shaywitz:That was fascinating and very interesting.
:Thank you .
Sally Shaywitz:He's shaking his head yes.
Susan Lambert:<laugh> . Oh my goodness. So really, the brain imaging was earlier than what I thought it was. So that's very, very interesting. So let's go back to some of these other myths, though. Is there any other myths? We talked about—
Sally Shaywitz:A myth is that it's outgrown.
Susan Lambert:Yes.
Sally Shaywitz:When it's persistent. And people think, "Oh, dyslexics can't read." It's not that they can't read, but what an effort and struggle it is to read. And this is — and I've touched on it, the myth that it's related to intelligence. And what we have learned is you can be quite intelligent and struggle to read. And that's a very harmful myth, because if people are slow readers, they think they're slow thinkers. And that's been disproven by so many bright people who struggle to read.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. You know, I think I shared with you when we talked before that the reason I got into education is because I have a son that's dyslexic. And we went through, I went through all of the same conversations with schools that you were talking about . You know, the parents you worked with, that the school said, "Just wait, he's gonna be fine. He's such a good boy. His behavior is fine." And by fourth grade, it was really a struggle for him to go to school. He was always sick and cried and ... but when we found out, and it took some persistence to actually get a diagnosis, and it didn't come from the school, it came from outside the school. But I think many of the things that he struggled with, you have been talking about — that he felt like he wasn't smart.
Sally Shaywitz:Well, see, that's why I think it's so important to screen. To learn early that you may be at risk. And then to follow up with more testing that may confirm you're dyslexic. When you have something, but it doesn't have a name, it leads to anxiety.
Susan Lambert:Oh gosh. That's so important.
Sally Shaywitz:So when you know that you have something, and it has a name, and many people have it who are intelligent, that makes such a difference.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if you — and I know I'm putting you on the spot here — but I wonder if you have any memories of a story of a parent or a child that you worked with that you were able to help them understand dyslexia and it really helped move them forward?
Sally Shaywitz:Oh , there are many. I'm thinking of a young man whose parents actually didn't want him to know he was dyslexic.
Susan Lambert:Oh!
Sally Shaywitz:Because they thought, "Oh my, what a shame," or whatever. And I remember , I traveled a lot and his family traveled a lot. And we happened to be in the same city, in the same hotel. So I said, "Come, let's meet and talk." And his parents were so upset at this. But he did anyway. He was i n his high teens. And I said, "Why don't you sit down here on the couch in this hotel room, and let's talk." And, you know, I told him about his dyslexia, how he was intelligent, but also dyslexic. He let out such a b reath of relief. He said, "It makes such a difference to me, to know what I have h as a name, and t hat I'm intelligent." It was an incredible, incredible experience. And I should add, he has done extremely w ell in life.
Susan Lambert:That's great.
Sally Shaywitz:So I think it's something that should be known and shared with children and adults who a re dyslexic. It's not shame. That's the error . And there a re so many people who are slow readers who are brilliant thinkers. T hat's our Sea o f Strengths model. So parents and others shouldn't be ashamed of it. Teachers should know as well.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. And, and that's one of the reasons that you wrote the book, Overcoming Dyslexia, is to bring that information to the forefront. Can you talk a little bit about the writing of that book and why it was so important to you?
Sally Shaywitz:Well, because so many people contact me about worries about themselves or their families — their child, usually. And I thought it would be very important to have a resource that would have all this information. What is the history? What is the definition? And let me say it now: In 2018, Congress passed a law that defined dyslexia as an unexpected difficulty in reading and in an individual who has the ability present to be a far better reader. And in the book, we talk about the neural systems i n dyslexia, which is fascinating. About the cognitive basis. About screening for dyslexia. How do you select a screener? What makes a good screener? Preserving — what do you do when you see y our child getting nervous and upset? How do you preserve your child's intelligence and self-esteem? A lot about the clinical picture. What are the symptoms early on, and as the child develops? And then there are several chapters on schools, including one whole chapter on specialized schools. I'm very much in favor of that for dyslexic students . And then a very common comorbidity with dyslexia is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And anxiety, as well, but more the ADHD. And what we know now — are you ready for this?
Susan Lambert:Yes.
Sally Shaywitz:Is that half of the people who have dyslexia also have ADHD.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Sally Shaywitz:Very common. And each type of ADHD. And half of the people that have ADHD are also dyslexic. So it's very important to be aware of it, to look for it, and address it. In the book I wrote, I have several chapters about the role of technology. And I've also ... you know, I care a great deal about people, children. And so many people have come to me because they've been refused accommodations. And in fact, in one case, this young man that we knew, he couldn't get accommodations on the standardized tests . So what do you think I did? Better than I took a train down to Washington and met with the Department of Justice.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Sally Shaywitz:Actually, with the head of the civil rights component there . And they were wonderful. They have acted quickly and in a good way. So now, and in fact, it's in the book: A whole chapter on accommodations. What are they? What is available? And how do you get them? And there's another chapter — and you can tell it's a positive chapter — law is on your side. And getting back to our trip to Washington, this young man received accommodations. He went on to medical school. And did very well. And you know what he does now? He's an anesthesiologist.
Susan Lambert:Oh, there you go.
Sally Shaywitz:And he's head of his hospital.
Susan Lambert:Oh, that's amazing.
Sally Shaywitz:And that comes to the very last chapter in the book. that I labeled "A Person Like That." And it writes about all the well-known people, who most people have heard of, who have very high-level positions that allow them to help others.
Susan Lambert:Well, that's an amazing overview of the book. I'm sure it's been in multiple printings already. Right?
Sally Shaywitz:Yeah. And , it's a bestseller. And it's so interesting. I gave a talk, just on Sunday, two or three days ago, at a specialized school, and we had a huge number of people who were the attendees. And people would raise their hand and say, "Oh, it w as so helpful. I read it in your book. I read it in your book."
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Sally Shaywitz:And it's really ... and the book has had awards. And we were very fortunate — you know who wrote the commentary about overcoming dyslexia?
Susan Lambert:Who did that? No.
Sally Shaywitz:You may have heard of him. Bob Dylan?
Susan Lambert:We have heard of Bob Dylan <laugh>.
Sally Shaywitz:So he wrote a really beautiful commentary, I'm embarrassed. On the book and myself. And that's on the back of the hardcover o f the book.
Susan Lambert:That's amazing. Well, you've also taken another step just recently beyond the book, which is a course for people to be able to take to understand more about that. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Sally Shaywitz:Yes. There is a course called Coursera. And that's, that has huge number of followers. And I was honored that I was asked to do the Coursera course on dyslexia. It's online; it's free; it's very user-friendly, and people can get a certificate of completion when they finish it. And so we — my husband and I — worked very hard on it. 'Cause we wanted to make it accessible. We didn't wanna show up: "Oh, this is such a fancy course, blah, blah , blah ." We wanted to make it accessible.
Susan Lambert:Nice.
Sally Shaywitz:And we did. And what we did is we had it comprised of a lot of people telling you, talking about dyslexia. What it is, the different components, what are the symptoms, how do you get help? And guess what? It is extremely popular.
Susan Lambert:Oh, wow. That's amazing.
Sally Shaywitz:And if people want to get it, it's free. You could go onto Coursera. And the title of the course is Overcoming Dyslexia.
Susan Lambert:That tells me that there's a real need for people to understand dyslexia. And this is a medium in which—
Sally Shaywitz:Oh my gosh, there are! And let me just tell you , I've been very fortunate to get to know a lot of wonderful people who are dyslexic. So some of the people that are in this course are a young man — one of the first I met — named Ray. And his mother. He's dyslexic, a basketball player. Somebody you may have heard of; are you ready?
Susan Lambert:Yep .
Sally Shaywitz:Gavin Newsom.
Susan Lambert:Oh, wow.
Sally Shaywitz:<laugh> He's, as you I'm sure know, the governor of California. And also dyslexic. Someone else you may have heard of, a brilliant attorney, David Boies—
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Sally Shaywitz:—who's dyslexic. Dr . Laura Cassidy, who's developed a wonderful program — a school, actually — for dyslexic students. Cardiac surgeon, Dr. Delos Cosgrove , D iane Swonk , who's a n economist. And also children, a family w here several o f the people are dyslexic. And they were wonderful, because several o f t he children and the mother spoke to me about t hat dyslexia, and what it feels like. So they were all in the Coursera. And I'm very proud that they agreed to do it and did it. So wonderful.
Susan Lambert:That's amazing. I wonder, as you're thinking back on all of the years of your work, when you first started this, did you ever imagine that you would be so influential in dyslexia research and understanding dyslexia?
Sally Shaywitz:Well, I didn't think of my role. I thought of the people who I was aiming to affect and to help.
Susan Lambert:That's incredible. And I just wonder ... I do have to say one more thing about you, you and Bennett doing this together, as colleagues and as partners. I wonder what some of your dinner conversations sounded like. Did you talk about your work over dinner? At breakfast? <laugh>
Sally Shaywitz:Sometimes. <laugh> . Sometimes. And also, let me tell you about how we closed the book and some of the findings. It'll be brief.
Susan Lambert:Please.
Sally Shaywitz:OK. Dyslexics — this is right at the end. It's the last paragraph of Overcoming Dyslexia. "Dyslexics think differently. They are intuitive and excel at problem solving, seeing the big picture and simplifying. They feast on visualizing abstract thinking and thinking out of the box. They are poor rote reciters but inspired visionaries. Adult dyslexics are tough: having struggled, they're used to adversity; hard work and perseverance now come naturally. Having experienced failure, they are fearless and undaunted by setbacks." And now I wanna mention very briefly a study we did.
Susan Lambert:OK.
Sally Shaywitz:We wanted to evaluate dyslexic students, their outcome, five or more years after graduation. So you know what we did? We studied Yale students. Half of whom were dyslexic and half of whom were typical readers. And they had, you know, similar academic and social experiences in the college and workplace, five or more years after graduation. So we studied them while they were in school, but also five or more years after graduation. And you know, what we found? Dyslexic college graduates DID NOT, did not differ, from typical graduates in college and the workplace.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Sally Shaywitz:And what we found, and here's a quote from one of the dyslexic Yale students. "Dyslexia has helped me in the long run, because I've always worked harder than my peers. I'm more determined and resilient because of the disability. Perhaps my dyslexia has made me a harder worker and has taught me to keep innovating and coming up with more effective methods to work. I don't give up easily." In college and in the workplace, both dyslexic readers and typical readers experienced positive outcomes. So in conclusion, the results offer an expected, yet reassuring picture of the college and career success of individuals with dyslexia. Graduates with dyslexia appeared to compensate for the disability by accessing their strengths. So I think people have to remember that.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. I think it's a lovely way to end, Dr. Shaywitz.
Sally Shaywitz:I do, too.
Susan Lambert:<laugh> With hope, right? And encouragement. And wanting our educators and teachers and parents and those folks that struggle with dyslexia to really understand more about it.
Sally Shaywitz:And that's why — I'm sorry to interrupt you — we all, parents, teachers, everyone, has to make sure that the dyslexic students themselves know this. So they have hope.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the work that you've done over the many, many years and continue to do. Thank you for allowing Bennett to have a little voice in this conversation, too. And we appreciate you being here so much. So thank you.
Sally Shaywitz:Thank you. It's been an honor for me as well.
Susan Lambert:Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Dr. Sally Shaywitz. Check out the show notes for a link to the latest edition of her book, Overcoming Dyslexia, as well as her new Coursera, also titled Overcoming Dyslexia. We'll also have a link to a New York Times story about her and her husband titled, "The Couple Who Helped Decode Dyslexia." Please subscribe to Science of Reading: The Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. We'd also be grateful if you rated us and left us a review. You can find information on all of Amplify's podcasts at Amplify.com/Hub. Science of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify. For more information and how Amplify leverages the Science of Reading, go to Amplify.com/CKLA. Next time on the show, we're doing something a little special. We'll be talking to Super Bowl champion, picture book author, and youth literacy advocate, Malcolm Mitchell.
Malcolm Mitchell:When I scored a touchdown, they probably put my name in the newspaper. People probably tell me, "Good job," all around town. But when I finished one book, no one ever said anything. So which one am I more likely to repeat?
Susan Lambert:Right. Which one are you more proud of now, though?
Malcolm Mitchell:Of reading.
Susan Lambert:That's next time on Science of Reading: The Podcast. Thanks so much for listening.