In this episode, in honor of Dyslexia Awareness Month, we highlight Kareem Weaver's daughter Margaret "Margo" and nephew Elijah—both of whom learned they had dyslexia later in their young lives. After many struggles in school, Margo was diagnosed with dyslexia in high school. Meanwhile, Elijah was diagnosed with dyslexia only while he was incarcerated. Margo and Elijah discuss the impact of their diagnoses. Meanwhile, Kareem reflects on their stories and shares lessons learned for families and caregivers. Margo and Elijah also share their advice for educators and other young people about types of dyslexia.
Show notes:
Quotes:
"It made me realize I wasn't the problem; something was wrong with me. I just had a little bump in the road that was making it just a little bit harder for me." —Margo Weaver
"It shouldn't take having to go to jail to get what you need to learn how to read. That's the bottom of it." —Kareem Weaver
"Just try to take a deep breath in and ask questions." —Elijah Valencia
"Even when they were trying to help me ... it's like they were expecting me to be learning at everybody else's pace." —Elijah Valencia
"Real talk as a parent: We got to own up to stuff." —Kareem Weaver
"When a kid can't read and life gets a hold of you, it's a life cycle. Next thing you know, you find yourself in situatins that you never would have imagined." —Kareem Weaver
"Most parents are overwhelmed and they need an ally in the building." —Kareem Weaver
"I just wish somebody kind of sat with me and told me that I wasn't stupid and that I was okay." —Margo Weaver
In this episode, in honor of Dyslexia Awareness Month, we highlight Kareem Weaver's daughter Margaret "Margo" and nephew Elijah—both of whom learned they had dyslexia later in their young lives. After many struggles in school, Margo was diagnosed with dyslexia in high school. Meanwhile, Elijah was diagnosed with dyslexia only while he was incarcerated. Margo and Elijah discuss the impact of their diagnoses. Meanwhile, Kareem reflects on their stories and shares lessons learned for families and caregivers. Margo and Elijah also share their advice for educators and other young people about types of dyslexia.
Show notes:
Quotes:
"It made me realize I wasn't the problem; something was wrong with me. I just had a little bump in the road that was making it just a little bit harder for me." —Margo Weaver
"It shouldn't take having to go to jail to get what you need to learn how to read. That's the bottom of it." —Kareem Weaver
"Just try to take a deep breath in and ask questions." —Elijah Valencia
"Even when they were trying to help me ... it's like they were expecting me to be learning at everybody else's pace." —Elijah Valencia
"Real talk as a parent: We got to own up to stuff." —Kareem Weaver
"When a kid can't read and life gets a hold of you, it's a life cycle. Next thing you know, you find yourself in situatins that you never would have imagined." —Kareem Weaver
"Most parents are overwhelmed and they need an ally in the building." —Kareem Weaver
"I just wish somebody kind of sat with me and told me that I wasn't stupid and that I was okay." —Margo Weaver
I just wish somebody really kind of sat with me and told me that I wasn't stupid, and that I was OK.
Susan Lambert:This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast, from Amplify, where the science of reading lives. We're just one week away from launching our brand new eighth season, but first we have one more very special episode for you. So, when was it that you actually discovered — and something was named — that you had dyslexia? How did you come to that realization?
Elijah Weaver:When I was incarcerated.
Kareem Weaver:You being locked up, to get tested then, and get your AA then, it shouldn't take all that for a kid to get what they need. It shouldn't take having to go to jail to get what you need to learn how to read. That's the bottom line of it.
Margaret Weaver:It makes me sad that somebody so close to me, one of my own family members, had to go through that as well.
Susan Lambert:October is Dyslexia Awareness Month, and today we welcome back one of our celebrity guests, Kareem Weaver. Kareem is a co-founder and executive director of the organization FULCRUM: Full and Complete Reading is a Universal Mandate. He's also the Oakland NAACP's second vice president and chair of its education committee. He joined this podcast way back on Season 4 and again for our first ever live recording at the Plain Talk conference. This documentary is sort of built around your story. How did this happen?
Kareem Weaver:I don't know. <laugh> , I really don't know .
Susan Lambert:But this time around, Kareem won't be joining us by himself. He's being joined by two people very close to him, his nephew Elijah, and his daughter Margaret Malaika Weaver. Especially as Dyslexia Awareness Month gets underway, I think you'll be moved by these two young people's stories. One quick note: If you stick around to the very end, you'll get a special sneak preview of what's to come on Season 8 of the podcast. But first, let's dive into this conversation beginning with Kareem . Kareem Weaver, you're back with us—
Kareem Weaver:Hey, I'm back again. What's good?
Susan Lambert:—for another episode? What's up?
Kareem Weaver:Hey. Hey. It's been a minute; it's been a minute.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. I'd like to start with you ... actually, to talk to you a little bit about this episode that we're just gonna get into. And, first of all, our listeners know who you are, right? So we don't even have to introduce you. And we'll do some of that introduction in the intro anyway, Kareem. But why do you think it's so important for people to hear this particular story?
Kareem Weaver:I think it's the butterflies in my stomach. It's the things that we don't often talk about , about the impact of families, on young people. Sometimes we have these conversations that are ideological or theoretical, and we don't get into the weeds about the real-life impact of how this stuff rolls in and out of our young people. And I think that's divorced from all this type of stuff. And it shouldn't be . We got to plug into the real deal. And that also means that we gotta be vulnerable enough to share, which is not easy to do. So that's why I'm so grateful that they were willing to join us for this. And , I think that's the reason why it needs to happen, is because, we can't just be talking about stuff in our heads. If it's all in the head, it's probably a lie. It's gotta ... the heart gotta be in there too, you know? So that's why bringing these young people out and letting 'em tell their stories and talking to 'em, I think it's really, really important.
Susan Lambert:Yeah, yeah. I agree with you. So we have with us your daughter and your nephew, and these are two kids that you've seen grow up. What do you remember about these two when they were young?
Kareem Weaver:So, wow. Where do I start? I'll start with Elijah. Elijah is the same age as my oldest daughter, Zena. They're a couple months apart, or something like that. December and August. So I remember growing up ... every family, you're not supposed to have favorites. You're not supposed to have favorites, right ? That's officially what all parents say. "I don't have favorites, man." I think my brother <laugh> probably kind of broke that, 'cause Elijah was always his favorite. And I remember he came to live with us for a while .
Susan Lambert:Mm -hmm .
Kareem Weaver:Him and his brother came to live with us for a while. And I remember them going through a lot of stuff. And I remember how intelligence, I remember the grit, the determination. I remember the kindness, the sense of humor. I remember. I remember a lot. And for Margo, oh gosh, I remember her being a pain in the neck <laugh>.
Margaret Weaver:Oh!
Kareem Weaver:I'm just playing with you. Nah, nah, I'm playing with you. She's the baby of the house. She's the last one out the door. So, we had the benefit of hindsight from her older sister and her older brother. And I remember thinking to myself, I better do something so that I learned from the past. So I think she was a beneficiary, some of the hard-learned lessons that our family had to deal with. So I love them both and I'm glad that they're ... I could go on and on, but, I know it's not about me today, so.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. <laugh> It's not about you today. That's right.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah.
Susan Lambert:Margo, do you wanna say hi to our listeners? Just introduce yourself real quick.
Margaret Weaver:Hello, my name is Margaret Malaika Weaver, but you can just call me Margo. I am going to Bowie State University this year. I'm an incoming freshman.
Kareem Weaver:Whoop, whoop.
Margaret Weaver:I'm very excited about that.
Susan Lambert:That's great.
Margaret Weaver:I'll also be playing softball for them, 'cause that's something I'm very passionate about. I've been doing that my whole life. And I'm also an artist. I like to do art. That's what I'm passionate about. And I wanna make a career out of that. So, yeah.
Susan Lambert:That's exciting! Great! Thanks for that introduction. Elijah, your turn.
Elijah Weaver:I'm Elijah, 26. I'm not going to school right now. I was. I do have my AA in sociology.
Susan Lambert:That's awesome!
Elijah Weaver:Now I work full-time.
Susan Lambert:Great! Thanks. Thanks for introducing yourselves. Margo, we're gonna start with you, and hear a little bit about your story. How about when you remember learning how to read? Do you remember way back ... I know a long time ago, asking you to bring forth memories from the past. But what do you remember about learning how to read?
Margaret Weaver:What I remember is my parents. They're the ones who really taught me how to read. And so I remember my dad used to record all the learning sessions we would have in the house. And he would write sentences on a whiteboard. We'd have to sound them out. Stuff like that. I don't have exact memories of it. But from those videos, that's what I recall. So he would teach us how to read. We'd have different learning programs. Dad, what were they called? The little ...
Kareem Weaver:Turbo Twist. Turbo Twist.
Margaret Weaver:Turbo Twist. We would have Turbo Twists and we were forced to do those all the time. And so that was my source of fun as a kid <laugh>. We would have these books in the house that have really big letters in them. I loved those. It made reading a lot more easier. But growing up, they're the ones who taught me how to read. And from that, I thought it was really cool and really fun. But it was only until I entered school where it kind of went downhill for me. And my kind of viewpoint on reading shifted a lot. So.
Susan Lambert:What happened?
Margaret Weaver:It just wasn't fun anymore. I wasn't taught properly how to read. I was forced to memorize a lot of my words, which caused me to just ... it just made it frustrating. And it was always harder for me to retain information and constantly memorize it. And so, being forced to memorize words that I didn't know, I didn't know the meanings of them, I'm just looking at random syllables on a piece of paper all the time, and it just got frustrating for me. So then, now we're forced to read a certain book in class. I don't like what the book's about. It's too long. I don't understand what's going on.
Susan Lambert:Hmm.
Margaret Weaver:Now I'm not even reading the book; I'm just staring at the pages. It was just dreadful the whole time.
Susan Lambert:Mm - hmm.
Margaret Weaver:And so, reading became stressful, and it felt like a chore to me. So I didn't like it at all.
Susan Lambert:Hmm.
Margaret Weaver:I'm just now regaining that love for reading, so.
Susan Lambert:That's awesome.
Margaret Weaver:Yeah.
Susan Lambert:That's great. What about the kids around you? Did you notice things about what they were doing? Did you compare yourself to what they were doing?
Margaret Weaver:I definitely compared myself to the other kids in class, because nobody, from what I knew, presented like they were struggling with reading. So, I felt like it was just me.
Susan Lambert:Mm - hmm.
Margaret Weaver:And I don't think I was struggling so much to where I was, "Oh there's a problem with me," or "I need immediate help." It was just more like I was one of the lower people in class, so it wasn't a huge red flag waving in your face, like, "Oh, there's a problem with her."
Susan Lambert:Mm - hmm.
Margaret Weaver:So I kind of slowly fell behind the other classmates of mine. And I remember that we would have different reading tests in class, so the whole classroom would be quiet, and you'd be pulled aside with the teacher, and you're supposed to read a certain book. And depending on how well you read that book in front of everybody, you got a little yellow star or a gold star, whatever it was. And I remember each time I'd stutter on my words. I wouldn't know what was happening. And the teacher would be like, "Oh well, you didn't do too good today, so we're just gonna have to keep you behind." And that was embarrassing.
Susan Lambert:Ouch.
Margaret Weaver:So I felt like I was the only one who was really struggling with it.
Susan Lambert:Did you feel like you weren't just working hard enough? What was that feeling for you?
Margaret Weaver:I felt like I was working hard — well, as hard as I could for an elementary school student. And, I think after a while, when people around me told me that I wasn't working hard enough, I started to believe that what I was giving out, what my best was, wasn't good enough. And so then I started to slowly not give my best. Because why would I give my best if it's not gonna be good enough for you? So I just kind of slowly didn't care anymore about how I performed in school. Yeah.
Susan Lambert:Did that impact other parts of school too? So it wasn't just the reading time, it was maybe all school ?
Margaret Weaver:Absolutely. I think once I hit middle school was when it really kind of slapped me in the face. Because that's when we're all hitting puberty, and everyone's trying to make their little friend groups. And my self-confidence totally just dropped once I hit sixth and seventh grade. And so by that point, I really didn't have any friends. I had probably one or two people I'd hang out with. But there was nobody really there supporting me, on the actual kid level. And I would end up literally eating lunch alone in the bathrooms by myself. Because I isolated myself so much, so I didn't have anyone to go to. At home, I think I was pretty OK. But as soon as my parents would talk about school: "Oh, how was your day at school? What's going on in school? What's your work looking like?" I just completely shut down. So anything that had to do with school, I would completely <laugh> — my brain would start twitching. I didn't like it at all. It just grossed me out. I didn't like it.
Susan Lambert:Were you ever able to talk to your parents about it? Like, "I'm struggling to read" or "I don't like school because of this," or you just couldn't put words to it?
Margaret Weaver:I probably couldn't put the best words to it. Because I do struggle with explaining myself, sometimes. And I'm sure I've probably expressed to them that I don't ... well, I've definitely expressed that I don't like school. I don't like school. I don't wanna be there. I'd rather be homeschooled. Something like that. But I think actually explaining to them what's going on, I never really did that. So I can't really blame them for that. 'Cause I didn't really go into depth and tell them how I was feeling and what was going on. But I think it was only until high school, when I started to really try my best to explain: "Hey, something's not right. I don't like it here. I'm not learning anything. I don't feel benefited. Help me." <Laugh> So I don't think that ever happened earlier on in my life.
Susan Lambert:You said that you've been playing softball for a really long time. How does softball fit into this story?
Margaret Weaver:Softball. Oh , I love softball. Softball was definitely an outlet for me to express myself, because again, at school, I didn't really have a close-knit pod of people that I was running with. But for softball, I had a solid team of 13, 14 girls. We all know each other. We're all supporting each other academically, socially. It's a family-based community, and I loved it so much, no matter what team I was on. It really kept me going, honestly. I remember, I think it was my sophomore year, that was when my parents were like, "You're not doing too good in school. Something's wrong. Maybe it's because you're doing softball that's distracting you." And they went to my high school counselor and they're like, "Yeah, we're thinking about pulling her from softball." And my counselor was like, "Hmm, no." <Laugh> " Let's not do that. Because this is something she really enjoys. And it's important for people to have an outlet to go to when they're really, stressed." And I'm so happy that they did not pull me from softball, because I needed it so much. 'Cause it forced me to ... I was good at something. I was really good at something. I was passionate about it. And being able to perform at a hundred percent and being encouraged in a positive way, I think really helped me. So, I needed that.
Susan Lambert:At what point did you realize that you needed help with this whole reading-writing thing? Was it that, at that point when they went to the school and said, "We're thinking of pulling her from softball"? How did that all evolve?
Margaret Weaver:I think I always knew I needed help. I just kind of struggled with asking for help, because I didn't wanna admit that I was as far behind as I was. And it was kind of embarrassing. I have my siblings, who are doing great in school, and they're succeeding. And then here I am, the one person in the family who kind of sucks. And I didn't wanna admit it. But I think when they were talking about switching schools, and they're saying, "Maybe we need to pull you from St . Mary's; maybe we need to take you outta softball," and they were like, "Oh, now we need to get you tested," I'm like, OK, OK! Maybe this is really an issue! <Laugh> And then that's when I started to kind of let down my guard a little bit. And I was like, "Yeah, I kind of need help. I probably need tutoring. Help me," <laugh> kind of thing. So I think it was later on in high school when I ... I wouldn't even say that I humbled myself a little bit. I just, I felt more open to asking for help from people.
Susan Lambert:So, you said you got tested. Tell me a little bit about that. What that experience was like and then the results, what it felt like to get some results of that?
Margaret Weaver:Oh my goodness. <laugh> When I got tested, I think it was a two-, three-week process. It was long. It was long. It was probably a solid three hours straight of testing, where they would take me through different sections, like reading, writing, math, different puzzle equations. I'd have to read certain phrases backwards and I'd have to repeat it. There's memorization tests. But it was so long, and I wouldn't get a break. And so after every single session, I'd be absolutely wiped. I think I'd sleep the whole ride home in the car. I was absolutely exhausted. But the lady was really nice, who was testing me. And I think at the end of my time, when I got — it was this 36-page report on how my brain works, what I'm good at, what I'm not so good at, how I retain information, what's gonna be best for me in school, teachers need to know this about me, you need to know this about her, kind of thing. And they didn't just test reading, writing, and stuff. They were also testing behavioral issues as well. And so I also have ADHD. And they were watching literally every move that I did. There was a baby crying in the other room one time. And in the report, it was talking about how I was hyper-focused on one of these puzzle pieces that I was trying to figure out, and that I didn't pay attention to the ambulance behind me, the baby in the other room, her trying to make small talk with me. It was a full, in-depth report on my behavior, and how I was responding in different situations. It was kind of scary at first. But <laugh> it was really cool to see. And I think after I got the report, my parents immediately went down to the counseling center, handed the counselor my report, and they put accommodations in place for me. And it just felt like a weight was lifted off my shoulders, when it was like, "You have dyslexia or stealth dyslexia, and you also have ADHD." And I'm like, "Oh, it's all making sense now!" <Laugh> . It's just crazy. It really did feel like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. 'Cause it made me realize I wasn't the problem. Something wasn't wrong with me. I just had a little bump in the road that was making it just a little bit harder for me. It was nice.
Susan Lambert:Did you get any affirmations from that report about other things? Were there other things from that report that you heard that you're like, "Oh, that's cool"?
Margaret Weaver:<laugh> They said I was, I was superior in making 3D models in my brain <laugh> . So I'm good at imagining things and then putting it into action, which kind of works perfectly on how I do art and stuff. They basically were saying I'm very, very, very creative, and there's a bunch of other things I just forget. But I remember that one, because I read it and I was like, "Ha ha, I'm superior!" So, whew .
Susan Lambert:So, Kareem, you've lived with Margo through Margo's story. How do you respond to what you're hearing?
Kareem Weaver:Man. Well, first of all, kids going through this, it just was a reminder that the whole family experiences it. And we may not know all the details of what's going on, but it's painful having your kid struggle. She was talking, and a few things came . First of all, I started to get mad all over again. I thought I was kind of through that stuff. But, when you hear about your kid struggling, and how the system works and doesn't work, and things you did and didn't do, it's rough. It's rough. That's the first thing I'm feeling. The second thing is, I feel like, I'm a teacher; I was a teacher for a long time, and a principal; my wife was an educator ... and I feel like we got hustled. I feel like we got bamboozled. Because you always hear about this parent involvement. Give the parents more involvement. Get the parents to do this. So I'm sitting here thinking, "Did we mess her up by helping her so much?" I mean, we taught her how to read! She was reading good when she went in . We had to do kindergarten twice, once at the little Christian preschool treehouse, and then again in the public school . So she did ... no, it was kindergarten twice. She did preschool at the treehouse and then kindergarten there . And then we transferred her to the district. So she was ready on top of ready . And so, that's why I was like, "OK, we good. We good. We got her ready. She set up for success like all the rest ones." She loves to read. Loved to read. Matter of fact, in the Right to Read movie , Margo was the kid that turned to the camera and says, "I love it." She loved it! And the stuff they started doing with her ... and look, this is my shame. I stopped paying attention. I figured, I did my job. I got her ready to go to school. Now, go on. Go pay attention; do your lessons; and it's good. Not realizing that the stuff they was teaching her made her go backwards. And that, that right there ... I gotta be careful, pastor might hear this. But listen, ain't nothing nice. I ain't got too much nice to say about that. And I feel like, because she was so ready, they didn't catch the issues. So the parent engagement that we had, all the parental involvement actually works against her, I feel like. Because maybe if she came in, and she couldn't read, or wasn't picking stuff up right away, they'd have found it. But instead, it was like, "Oh, she's all right , she's ahead." "Oh, she's not ahead, but she's still solid ." "Oh. ..." By the time it got on their alarm ... we can get into the expectations for different kids. Little Black girl in school, she can read; what's the problem?
Susan Lambert:Mm -hmm . <affirmative> .
Kareem Weaver:And we sitting there saying, "Man, she's been reading. What y'all doing? She been reading, she came in reading. What you doing is making her go backwards." I mean, it would take Margo to explain how they was teaching you, or Elijah how they was teaching you, what they were doing. The whole MSV, guess the letters, the words, the sounds, the whatever, all that stuff. The context clues. All that stuff. Man, they just about shanked my daughter. They just about shanked her with all the love, all the best intentions. They basically took her dreams and just shanked them . And , anyway, by the time I came in, in third grade, down to the school ... now I'm mad. I'm woofing. Huffing and puffing. So, I didn't have a stay-away order <laugh> , but it was dang near close. Because I'm trying to get them to understand it's serious. And they're steadily telling me how sweet she is, how kind she is. "Oh, everybody loves Margo. Oh, just give her more time. She just needs more time. Kids develop at different rates. And maybe you're expect—" Oh, my, this is the one that got me: "Every parent believes their kid is in the top 1%. So I understand. But she's in a normal range." They basically was telling me, "You think too much of your child ." That's basically what they was telling me. And I'm like, "Y'all don't get it. She started off here and she's going backwards." I couldn't tell them people nothing. So they ended up ... my wife was the one that had to talk to 'em, because I couldn't talk to 'em . They were just spinning me around. Then the culture and class and race stuff got involved, and Angry Black Man, all this type of stuff. I'm like, "Man, y'all ... quit playing with my kid." So there's that. And I don't think she realizes what was going on. She just going to school. On the softball tip, I probably have told her this before, I don't know. But that softball, I mean, it'd take her to tell you, the reason why I got her involved in softball was because what happened to my older daughter, her sister. I was so busy teaching that me and her mother fell out and her mother was like, "I'm out. You ain't even around half the time. You teaching all night long, all day, all this." And so, that was a wound that was still fresh. And so I was like, "I'm not gonna let that happen again. I gotta stay plugged into my family." And so I did softball with her, so that I wouldn't just float away, planning lessons and doing whatever .That was a hard-won, hard-earned lesson. And so softball, you gotta be at practice. If I'm coaching, I can't just not show up; kids gonna be there. So that's why I got her involved in that. Just so that I would have to get out the building. I would have to start doing things. And it didn't solve everything, but it allowed me to ... I don't know, at least ... I mean, teachers, they give it a lot. Educators, period. And so it allowed me to at least stay plugged-in enough. I'm not sure it was enough. But it was more than I would've been otherwise. And then now she like All-State twice in a row, and doing her thing, and home-run hitter, all this type of stuff. But I was just doing it to keep myself from messing up as a dad. And if it wasn't for that, it would've been the same thing all over again. So, it's a lot of lessons, man. But it's tough to hear. And people think dyslexia is a white thing; that's the other thing. Like, I kept saying, "Something's happening!" Dyslexia was never on anybody's ... they wouldn't test her! I wrote letters to the school district. She was at the unified school district. Wrote letters to the district. All this type of stuff. They spun us around. And finally, we put her in a private Catholic school. I'm not Catholic. But we gotta do something! I d on't know what to do. She hates school! And w e still didn't know what it was. So I hear her saying this stuff, and it's like, man, that was our desperation move. And I'm ashamed to say, I'm absolutely ashamed to say . .. I t ried to pull her o utta softball. Because I didn't know what else to do. I thought maybe she was just not working hard enough. I knew she was working. I would sit by her in the library when she did her work. I was like, "No, you're go nna d o this math. You go nna d o this." Not realizing it was taking forever. It's not that she couldn't read; it just took forever. And it w as like nails on a c halkboard, you know? But she could do it. So I 'm thinking, "If you could do it, do it! Do it, doggone it!" <Laugh> And in the doing, it got more frustrating for her. And her grades were ... she was trying to stay eligible. Man, it was a hot mess. But, so it came to a point where we were like, I'm sitting here with her, and she gets stuff. But it's taking her a long time, a real long time. And so they thinking it's 30 minutes of homework. Th at 3 0 minutes in that math class is like an h our and a half. Multiply that by five, every day, five days a week, wh at y ou supposed to do? So she was just tapping out. And I was like, "I don't even. ..." Yeah, it was, it was a trip.
Susan Lambert:When that diagnosis came, of dyslexia and ADHD, how was that for you? What did that feel like, as a parent?
Kareem Weaver:Man, it was manna from heaven . It was manna from heaven. Because we just wanted answers. We just wanted answers. And to know what's going on. 'Cause I know she's brilliant. I know she's smart. I've been knowing that. They didn't tell me that. I knew that. Right? But, I'm looking at these grades. I mean ... look. OK. When you got two parents that are educators, you're not just gonna drop out of school. We're not gonna let you drop out of school. But there's more than one way to drop out of school.
Susan Lambert:That's right.
Kareem Weaver:So she was there, but her mind, her heart wasn't there. And she was just doing time. She was doing time, in school, doing time. We talk about the school-to-prison pipeline. A lot of kids in school, in prison, they're just doing time. So that diagnosis was very helpful. And then Black folks, we got a stigma around special ed. A lot of us. 'Cause the historical implications of special ed, they put the black kids in there. This is a historical thing. And my family done been through this. And so a lot of times, especially after segregation, black kids would get warehoused in special ed. Ya'll, I'm sure your listeners know what I'm talking about. And so, I don't want her to go to special ed. So don't gimme no label. But a lot of times that's for behavior. But they're not really looking at the academics that they should have had before, so that the behavior wouldn't even been a factor. So I was not happy about this whole special-ed thing. But by that time, I was like, "Oh, that's what's going on." And I felt guilty. I felt shame. I felt bad as a father. I felt like, "How could I not see this? I'm a Teacher of the Year! I'm like, Mr . Teacher!" Like, we go places around town: "Mr. Weaver! Hey, Mr. Weaver! That's the dude that da da da da. ..." And my own kid ... it's like a firetruck, going to a five-scale fire, and your truck bust down in flames, and you broke down on the side of the road. That's how I felt. Going to save everybody else's kids . So that's why, man , it's a whole lot of feelings with this. Margo, I apologize, baby girl, for not being what you needed me to be at that time, In the right space. I love you, and I'm so glad that you persevered. And I'm sorry you had to go through that. Hopefully, it built some character. And, I mean, real talk, as a parent, we gotta own up to stuff. Sometimes you c an be too busy. District giving me awards. I was a principal. I won an award in Oakland for being a principal of our region, all that. And I did what had to be done there. But at home, social justice starts at home. And so, my daughter was d ependent on me. And ... thank God for that counselor. M iss, I d on't k now, I ain't g onna say her name .... but M s. Mack. M s. Mack stepped in. 'Cause I was like, I'm old school. "No, take the softball. That's what she likes. Take away the a rt. Take away t hat softball. You g onna focus on these books." That's what we know. Old s chool. She i s like, "Nah, n ah, n ah, n ah, nah. Slow y our r oll. That's the only thing she got going that she loves to do. How you g onna take that from her?" And I think about schools all dry; they don't have n o art program < laugh>, they don't have no sports programs; all these schools a re bare bones. They take all t he stuff that might be the thing t he kid is hanging o n t o.
Susan Lambert:That's right.
Kareem Weaver:So , it's all kind of feelings about that. But ... I'm just real proud of her.
Susan Lambert:Margo, how do you feel about that apology and all that pride that's coming from your dad?
Margaret Weaver:Appreciate it. Thank you, Dad. I feel good. I feel good now. I mean, I feel like it probably would've had a bigger impact when I was a little younger, but I appreciate it. Thank you.
Susan Lambert:And for our listeners, I'm sitting here looking at this young lady who is going off to college, who is All-Star softball, and it's pretty amazing. Margo, congratulations.
Margaret Weaver:Thank you.
Kareem Weaver:And lemme say this, to all those universities that came late to the party of recruiting her . I just wanna laugh in your face.
Susan Lambert:<Laugh>
Margaret Weaver:Coming from a father.
Kareem Weaver:Hey ... listen, she two time All-State MVP of the league, a baller. But because of her grades, they was like, "Nah, I don't know ." Then she got t he diagnosis and they got t he accommodations. And all of a sudden she was bringing home straight-A report cards. Then all of a sudden — and we had this guy help us to get recruited and stuff — but then all of a sudden, they s tart hitting us up. Then all of a sudden, they w ant t o email. Before that, man, i t was nothing. T hey was like, "Well, what c an we do?" They didn't believe in her. The school that she chose, they stuck by her. They be lieved i n her. And that's what feels so good, in addition, th ey h a ve t he major and they lo ve t he team and the co ach a nd the school and all ty pe o f stuff. They be lieved i n her. And I'm glad to be able to send my ki ds s omewhere where they actually believe in her. That's my big thing. You know wh at I mean?
Susan Lambert:Yep . Yep . Yep . Shout out. That's awesome. Well, Elijah, we're gonna turn to you in just a second. So I'm giving you a heads-up to know that we're coming to you. But Kareem, one thing that I wanna say to you is, thanks for sharing that story. Because, well, I'm a parent of a kid with dyslexia. I was also a teacher and a principal. And I think that just understanding the whole process of dyslexia, and being able to be focused on it, that sometimes parents feel guilty. And they're not educators. And so to those parents who aren't educators ... don't feel bad. And also to those educators that are really trying to work through, identify, support, and help, sometimes teaching reading is a hard thing, right? And so , to just ... don't be so hard on ourselves. Focus on what we know is right. Evidence-based practices, but also just know that you're doing hard work. So I just think that for teachers that are listening, that that story that you just told is going to really be supportive to them. So thank you for that.
Kareem Weaver:So can I share one quick thing, real quick?
Susan Lambert:Please.
Kareem Weaver:Before we switch things.
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:To the educators out there. So, I paid good money for my ed program, Patton College. Now they're outta business now, Patten College, it went under. But I wasn't prepared. Nobody taught me about dyslexia.
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:I was flying blind and, I felt like I should have got a refund <laugh>. You know what I mean?
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:And we had to do the research on my own, to figure this stuff out. Now, I was applying what I did know how to do. Like, I taught her how to read. I applied what I did learn, following Marva Collins, and her example, which is basically Science of Reading. I did that stuff. And got her reading. But what I'm saying is, for educators, two things: One, it's the in-service. The old pre-service stuff that we did, man, you gotta shake that loose. Shake it loose. I know they might have taught you to queue it up and split it up and all the rest <laugh> of this stuff. I get it. But we losing kids like this, because we're sticking to methods that just never had evidence of working. Especially working for all kids.
Susan Lambert:That's right.
Kareem Weaver:That's the first thing. The second thing is, and I'm just talking to educators: There has to be a season of grace where ... the institutions get disconnected from the kids, but we can't. The superintendent, the school board, the whoever , the publishers ... it's not like they're all disconnected from the kids, but the teachers get connected to the kids. And when you as an educator see that this ain't working for all our kids, then it's on us. And we gotta drag the rest of 'em with us. But that's why I say educators gotta lead this. 'Cause I think everybody else is just flying blind, but we see the impact. We see ... she was actually going backwards. It's not just staying still. And no, it unraveled. The way she was being taught about literacy, it unraveled her ability to read. And I think that's something that folks gotta know. We doing harm. And so I just wanna say that these education prep programs gotta get it together. But for teachers, we're the tip of the spear. We're the vanguard. So please, please, please.: Don't let people spin you around and market you some stuff. Look at evidence of what works for kids. And focus on that. And get the support that you need.
Susan Lambert:That's right, yeah. Great and wise words from Kareem Weaver. Elijah, you've been very patient. <laugh> . We're gonna thank you for your patience. We're gonna turn to you next. But I guess you're the older of the two, right? So , what do you remember about learning to read when you were in school?
Elijah Weaver:I remember doing popcorn reading and I wasn't confident about it, because half of the time I didn't even know what was going on. I would, like, guess. It was just embarrassing. So I hated reading. I hated popcorn reading. I still kind of hate reading, doing the popcorn reading thing. I mean, it's got a lot better since then. But now it's ... I don't know. I'm just not comfortable with reading out loud; you get what I'm saying?
Susan Lambert:Yep . I do. So, Margo talked a lot about when she was young, she liked books. She liked to read. And she felt pretty confident about it. Do you have any memories from when you were really young, about books and wanting to read? Or no?
Elijah Weaver:So, I know my mom , she used to always take us to the library to get books and stuff. I would always pick the picture books, the easy books, that I could just know what's going on. But other than that, I didn't really like to mess with books. I still don't. I'd rather read off the phone. So.
Susan Lambert:<Laugh>. Well, first of all, let's talk a little bit about that popcorn reading. That's a common thing that we hear. It's like, oh my gosh, that's horrible, first of all, especially when you can't read. But what was school like for you generally?
Elijah Weaver:I think I was just always off-task and goofy and distracted, because I didn't understand, or I didn't know how to read. So I would basically go to school and just be zoned out or be goofing off, be talking, or just stuff like that.
Susan Lambert:Did anybody ever say, "Hey, maybe he doesn't know how to read. Maybe we should try to figure that out"?
Elijah Weaver:I wanna say, in middle school, I had a homeroom teacher. And I think I was in sixth grade, I think I was in sixth grade, sixth or seventh , one of the two. And basically I had her for two classes. I had her in homeroom, so I had her in the beginning of the day. And I had her at towards the ending of the day, for PE. And I was good in her PE class. But it's her homeroom, they were telling me my grades and we're going over testing and scores like that. And at first she was saying that I wasn't applying myself. And then she started talking to other teachers. And then, they started, I don't know, they came up with this thing. They felt like I should be tested. Because, first of all, I'm horrible in math. So it's not just reading; it's math as well. And they just thought that maybe it was other things that were going on at home. And as soon as we were about to get me tested, I stopped going to school. Something happened at home. And then I didn't go to school for ... until I wanna say, eighth grade year. So then, yeah, it just got lost.
Susan Lambert:It just got lost.
Elijah Weaver:Just got lost.
Susan Lambert:And, when you say that you were goofy in class and got in trouble in class, was that distracting? Was that because you...?"
Elijah Weaver:Yeah. It was just my coping mechanism, 'cause I was kind of embarrassed and stuff. Yeah .
Susan Lambert:Did you ever think that you could maybe ask for help? Or did you sort of ... like Margo, didn't know how to ask?
Elijah Weaver:Well, it was both. I was embarrassed to ask for help. But then, when they pulled us to the side, and we take our tests and things like that, it was hard. It was still was hard. Even when they were trying to help me. Because they were expecting me to be learning at everybody else's pace. You get what I'm saying? Like, if they called the child before me, and the child before me was reading well and whatever worked for them, it didn't work for me. So then, I don't know ... they felt I wasn't applying myself.
Susan Lambert:Did you ever have the sense that, "Hmm, there's something wrong with me"?
Elijah Weaver:I think as I got a little bit older, yes. 'Cause I would actually try. I would actually try really hard to just get everything. Math, reading ... and it just wasn't working out.
Susan Lambert:What were the kind of things that you did to try, especially when it came to reading?
Elijah Weaver:Spent extra time. 'Cause when I was younger ... like I said, my mom used to take us to the library and have us practice reading and stuff. And I'm not gonna lie, I didn't try at all. I tried, but it was like, if I knew I couldn't do it, I wouldn't even frustrate myself. So by then, as I started getting older, and you gotta ... I like to play basketball. And so basically, to be on the team, you have to have a 2.0. My GPA was under a 2.0. So I knew that I was gonna get kicked off the team if I didn't apply myself more. So, I tried. But it came to a point where it just wasn't working. For reading, for math. It was horrible. And then that's when they started kind of seeing that I actually was applying myself, but it wasn't working. And then they just said probably I have a lot of stuff going on at home, which is affecting the way I learn and focus at school.
Susan Lambert:So it was always about either you not working hard enough or there's something going on on at home. And it was never, "Maybe we need to teach him differently." Did you ever get the sense of, "Hey, wait a minute, maybe they're not teaching me the way that I need to be taught"?
Elijah Weaver:Sometimes I'd be like, "Maybe they going too fast," because right when I'm getting a tiny bit of a lesson, we already moved on to something else, and then it's hard for me to get caught up. You get what I'm saying? And now we taking these tests, these STAR tests, and it's: I'm not gonna pass it.
Susan Lambert:So when was it that you actually discovered — and something was named — that you had dyslexia? How did you come to that realization?
Elijah Weaver:When I was incarcerated.
Susan Lambert:Tell me a little bit about that.
Elijah Weaver:So I was in a youth authority prison in Camarillo, California. And basically , it's co-ed, and we basically have all these different teachers. But I could be in there with middle schoolers, high schoolers, and I probably was a sophomore or freshman. I think I was going into sophomore ... well, basically, I was good on my credits, because when you're incarcerated, basically, as long as you're doing ... they give us third grade packets. As long as we turn in all those packets, and we're doing a packet a week, we get all these credits. So basically, I was caught up on my credits. I was actually graduating early, with a diploma. But the only thing is we were doing Casey prep. This is when it had Casey, and I didn't do so well.
Susan Lambert:What's Casey?
Elijah Weaver:Basically, you need to pass the writing, English, and math to graduate with your diploma.
Susan Lambert:OK.
Elijah Weaver:And so I didn't do so well on the math and I didn't do so well on the writing. And my teacher — 'cause there's also a lot of students, there's a teacher and then there's all these different type of helpers in the classroom — so basically, I had two other people in my group, and I had one person just helping us out, and she was actually really trying to help me get it. And she was trying to motivate me, saying I'm almost there. I think I needed 10 more credits and then I can graduate. But I wasn't gonna graduate if I didn't pass those Caseys. So I guess she talked to the teacher, and the teacher was paying attention more, working with me more. And then they decided that they wanted to have a meeting with— I had a support team. I think it's a therapist , somebody from education, just a whole little support team. And they said that they think that I should get tested. They don't know exactly what's going on. But at this time I was not goofing off. So, it can't be goofing off. And I wasn't getting in trouble back at the unit. I was actually trying to work. So , I came in one week and they told me the plan, and I got tested, took a while , and then it came back that I do have dyslexia. And then they said something else. Basically , not the way I receive information ... but, I forgot. Basically, it was a lot.
Susan Lambert:How did it feel to you when you got that message that, "Hey, we found that you have dyslexia"? What did that mean to you, at that point?
Elijah Weaver:I didn't understand what that meant. I really didn't.
Susan Lambert:Fair.
Elijah Weaver:I didn't understand anything that was going on. But I know that the teacher broke it down to me a little bit. He was just telling me I'm not dumb. It's just gonna take a little bit more time for me to get things, and how I process things, and just things like that. But he said , "You're very smart, and it's just — everybody's different. Everybody learns different." And so with that, he started a plan, that I was going to get a little bit extra time to complete my assignments. And then I think we tried taking me to a separate room to just do my tests .
Susan Lambert:So, with the diagnosis of dyslexia, did anybody go back and try to help you learn more basic things about how to read?
Elijah Weaver:At that point? I think we didn't go backwards. We just moved forward. So it's what was in front of me. And I know that , by when we caught it, they already took the Casey out. They came a couple weeks later and said, I guess California took the Casey , the Casey exam out. So we no longer need that to graduate. We just need our credits. And by then, I was already graduated then. So they had my diploma ready. But I was taking college courses at Ventura, Ventura College, while I was incarcerated. So it just helped me prepare for when I was going to college.
Susan Lambert:And you have your associate's degree, right? You graduated with your associate . Congratulations.
Elijah Weaver:Thank you.
Susan Lambert:That's some resilience there, I think. Kareem, I'm back . I'm back at you.
Kareem Weaver:Man, man, man. <laugh> Whew, all right . Let me ask Elijah a couple questions, first, before I get my two cents,
Susan Lambert:Please do.
Kareem Weaver:Hey, man. Remember we did our video earlier, long time ago, me and you, one-on-one, we was talking about this stuff. And you were telling that you really ... did the teachers know how to help you learn how to read when you were in elementary school?
Elijah Weaver:Mm , no .
Kareem Weaver:So what were they doing? How were they trying to do it? What was the disconnect?
Elijah Weaver:They was just basically saying I was being defiant, in a different way, or goofing off, and they just passed me along.
Kareem Weaver:Did anybody teach you how to sound out words?
Elijah Weaver:Yeah, I think in the beginning. Yes.
Kareem Weaver:In the beginning. OK. So, did you learn how to break it down piece by piece? When did that happen? When you were in early elementary school?
Elijah Weaver:Mm-hmm. <affirmative> .
Kareem Weaver:So you learned about syllables and stuff. OK. Did you get good at it? Were you good at breaking things down in syllables and stuff?
Elijah Weaver:No.
Kareem Weaver:No.
Elijah Weaver:And then that's what they were saying. They were saying because I missed a lot of school, hopping around , house to house, just being there for like a week, and then not showing up for a couple of days or a week, they saying that I was missing out on my lessons and assignments and things like that. So, that's why they were saying, not that I'm not applying myself earlier, then they were blaming i t on what was going on at home.
Kareem Weaver:So I know the school district that he was in. And I actually know the principal who he had. She was in our program that I was the executive director of the program. And so I know the curriculum that they were using. And it was the same curriculum that Margo's folks were using. It was a balanced-literacy curriculum. And it's interesting to hear him say that they tried to give him the basics and then later on not have the basics. So I'm wondering if your behavior wasn't that bad. What you told me, you said your behavior wasn't that bad, initially. And they were trying to give you the basics. Where was the gap? I remember you telling me one time you used to try to guess the words to make people happy. You remember that?
Elijah Weaver:Oh, yeah .
Kareem Weaver:What was that about? What was that about?
Elijah Weaver:Because my brother was reading — I got a brother that's two years older than me. And I'm not gonna lie, I used to feel everybody used to ... if my brother was doing it, and he was doing good, they would expect me to do it too. So when we go home, my brother was good in school. He has As, he loves to read, he was just good, good at things. And then you have me. I was good at things, but I wasn't good at reading like him. When we go over your house, Uncle Barr , and then you and Marshawn are working on reading and math, and you're tutoring him or you guys are just going over stuff, and then you go to me, and it's hard. I can't do it. I'm trying. And even with my dad, we would try to read the newspaper, and I would guess the words; he would get frustrated; then I would just shut down. And then they would just tell me, like, "You know all the words to the songs, and you know this, but you can't read." You know?
Kareem Weaver:And in school, did you try guessing words in school?
Elijah Weaver:Yes. And then I stopped. And I learned that it was even more embarrassing.
Kareem Weaver:But when you guessing words, I mean, if the word is dog and you don't say dog , I don't understand how guessing even works. What were you doing?
Elijah Weaver:I would ... how would I say? I would guess, in my thought process, I see that word all the time. So I would try to, I don't know , guess. And then they'll be like, "Oh, you're guessing, you're guessing the word." You know? I would not read it, but if it started with a "d," I would assume it's "dog." If it's "t," I would say "there." You get what I'm saying?That's how I would guess.
Susan Lambert:A teaching strategy that doesn't work, Kareem.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. Well, I mean, man <laugh> . Oh Lord, have mercy. Elijah, one quick thing. When you were locked up, were a lot of people in there, did they struggle with this, the reading and everything like that, or was it just you?
Elijah Weaver:I know it was other people, but I don't think they caught on to it.
Kareem Weaver:Well , what I'm saying is that when you were incarcerated, did a lot of people struggle to read? Or was it, most people could read?
Elijah Weaver:Well, when they were in there, a lot of people wasn't doing the work, so you would never be able to tell. And a lot of people, they would stay back. Stay back, meaning they would stay home from school.
Kareem Weaver:You're talking about going to the school inside the facility?
Elijah Weaver:Yeah. They would stay back. So, when I say it's a good majority of us that were inside, but on my side, there's a couple of people that would go to school, still. And then there's some people that they would pass it up. They gave you the option to go to school, basically. So if you were a middle schooler or high schooler, and say you just didn't feel going to school today, you could always stay back in the unit.
Kareem Weaver:You were telling me about the messages that you guys would try to send, and how hard it was to some people.
Elijah Weaver:Oh yeah. The kites.
Susan Lambert:The kites. What's a kite?
Elijah Weaver:The kite. <laugh>. A kite is basically ... say, me and Margo are incarcerated. Say I want to tell her something; I'm locked down. I can't, you know. So I would take a little piece of paper; basically, on the piece of paper, roll it up into a kite. And then either I would pass it through another inmate or pass it through the food, or fish it under her door, where she could get it, and then she would read it, write me back, and do the same thing. Which is basically text messaging. Or email, or mailing something instantly.
Kareem Weaver:And people's ability to read those things. ...
Susan Lambert:Or write them.
Elijah Weaver:Honestly ... writing and reading, it was horrible. So basically instead of putting "SEE" we would put "c" and then "u." We would just kind of dumb it down a little bit.
Kareem Weaver:Wow.
Elijah Weaver:It worked. But then, when you go into school, you're writing like that, you know? It took me a while to write things out, and just change from being institutionalized. It took me just a lot to adapt to the outside.
Kareem Weaver:Sometimes when kids text a lot, a lot of times kids prefer to text, because it's a workaround for having to write. They don't do emails, 'cause they don't read too well. So they just text in code, just the same way they do in prison with the kites and the letters and the changes. And that's the workaround that kids do. That's why texting, a lot of times, is so popular. Am I wrong, y'all? Am I?
Elijah Weaver:No. 'cause I'm not gonna lie ... so I work actually as an assistant manager. And I have to respond to emails. And majority of the time, I don't respond. I let my manager do it. And if I have to respond, it is gonna take me a while, because I have to really sit and write it out and make it make sense to myself. Because I made a couple of mistakes and just I would basically email like I'm texting. It just didn't look professional. So, I'm learning.
Susan Lambert:Well, there're two very different stories here, but yet they're not.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. There's some similarities in there. The strategy ... three-cueing, guessing is a strategy. It's almost a workaround, when you don't know what to do. And, unfortunately, we've actually been teaching that as a strategy to read. That's what people do when they don't know what to do! I mean , you can hear Elijah say it, but at the end of the day, if you can't read it, you can't read it. Man, and I know some of the teachers he had, I know they're great people. I know some of them personally. Some of them went through our program. And you have the materials that you've been given, and it teaches you that. You teach the kids that. So he may or may not remember how it all went down, but the teachers, the schools, are promoting different methods that really are more workaround strategies and it becomes the norm. And we don't think anything of it. Not realizing that there's a group of kids, the majority of kids, that's not gonna work for 'em . And then it's a matter of what other opportunities and services can you provide 'em. But it kills me, nephew, to hear that you had to wait to get locked up to learn how to read, man. I mean, to read, decently. As a family, same way I told Margo, I'm sorry. I feel I owe you apology too, man. Even as your uncle. 'Cause y'all was living with us for a while . Well , living with me for a while, once my wife split, my ex-wife split, and took our oldest daughter, Zena. Y'all moved in. And I enjoyed being with y'all. I enjoyed watching y'all. I enjoyed, Marshawn playing for the Richmond Steelers, and you doing this and doing that. And I enjoyed all that. But hindsight is ... my job as an adult — even though I'm the uncle, not the father — but my main job is to make sure y'all are all right. And , I think I wasn't on point. I should have been on point. I should, I'm one of the people that could kick my brother. I'm the education guy in the family, you know what I mean? I'm the guy that went to college and did all this type of stuff. I'm the teacher and the principal and all this. So ... I don't even know what to say. I'm sorry that you had to go through that, and that you didn't have people to sound the alarms sooner than you being locked up. To get tested then, and learn how to read then, and get your AA then. It shouldn't take all that for a kid to get what they need. It shouldn't take having to go to jail to get what you need to learn how to read. That's the bottom line of it.
Susan Lambert:How's that? How's that make you feel, Elijah? Not to put you on the spot there. I wanna say something to both of you, Margo and Elijah. And that's your resilience, first of all, your courage to be able to come out and tell your story. I mean, that's just commendable. Like from the bottom of my heart, people need to hear this. I hope that we can get this message to kids, that they can know that maybe there's ways that you can ask for help. But the other thing is, is that it's not your fault. And the education system failed both of you at some level. And we hope that the work that we're doing, the work that Kareem is doing, starts to uncover some of that. To say, our job as educators is to teach all kids how to read. And when they're struggling to do that, to identify that early and get them the help that they need. So we're not talking about taking softball and art away from a kid that we think isn't working hard enough. Or another kid ends up in prison and gets diagnosed there. So I just wanna say, that's not your fault. And kudos to both of you for being resilient and working through all of that. The other thing that I'm really curious about is you're cousins. When you're hearing each other's story, how does that make you feel to hear each other's story? Margo?
Margaret Weaver:It makes me kind of sad. I've heard it before, because I know Dad likes to talk about it all the time. And then I've heard Elijah also say it. So it's nothing new to me, but it makes me sad that somebody so close to me, one of my own family members, had to go through that as well. It's just ... it's just tough. It's a little uncomfortable to hear, honestly , but it's the truth.
Susan Lambert:Elijah, how about you? When you heard Margo's story, what went through your mind?
Elijah Weaver:I went back and basically thought about how I felt when I went through it. So I was kind of feeling like, man, I wish I would've known this sooner, and I could help her out. Not help her out, but support her. And let her know she's not alone. And things happen, things happen. But now I'm proud, 'cause she's doing great. She's doing great. And you wouldn't even really see that from her. You get what I'm saying? Like, you wouldn't know all the challenges, 'cause it doesn't show. And it's the determination, and her just persevering through things. So, I'm proud. I'm a proud cousin.
Susan Lambert:Wow. That's awesome. Makes me a little teary-eyed. I'm sorry about that. What about messages to your families? Margo, go ahead, or Elijah, any messages that you have for your families about your experiences or anything you want them to know?
Margaret Weaver:It sucked. <laugh> It really sucked. Wouldn't do it again, wouldn't recommend <laugh> . But, I've made it. I feel I've popped out on the other side. Or I'm starting to. And I think, as a kid, I just needed more understanding from people and more grace. Like, help would've been nice. But I think understanding and grace from the adults would've been amazing. But, now that I'm here, and I'm going to college, and I'm surrounded by people who surprisingly have gone through similar experiences as well, like my classmates and some of my teachers at Bowie State , it feels like a little close-knit community. So I'm gonna be OK. <laugh> I believe I'm gonna be OK. But yeah, I'm gonna be OK.
Susan Lambert:Thanks for your honesty. "It sucked" is probably the best way to describe that. So, oh man, how about you Elijah? Any messages to your family?
Elijah Weaver:We just gotta do better, and pay more attention. And for those of my family members on all sides that are struggling with things, you just can't beat yourself up. When there's a will , there's a way. And, if we don't know , we gonna figure it out. But it's a together thing, so, we just gotta pay more attention. Because there could be more things that we struggling with and we don't even know that it's a real thing, you know?
Susan Lambert:Yeah. That's really wise. And I mean, I'm sitting here and thinking, Kareem, this isn't your fault either. And, we're giving kudos to these young people for being vulnerable and resilient and being willing to share their story ... but same to you, Kareem. For being vulnerable in so many ways on this podcast. Not just this one, but previous ones too. Being vulnerable, being resilient, and being willing to share the story as well.
Kareem Weaver:I appreciate that. And I disagree with you. I've come to terms with this. As parents, we got one job. It's not to make the most money. It's not to get the highest degrees. It's not to get the biggest house. It's this: We got one job, and it's to make sure these kids is all right. And so, I come from my legacy, my family, where you do whatever you can to support your kids. No matter what your job is, how much money you got, I don't care. And so, I think we just get so distracted, so busy doing stuff, and so busy , living life ... I could say my brother, whom I love — I only have one, one blood brother — we both had to take a L on this one. What were we doing? We were so busy chasing our goals, dreams, our jobs, our careers, whatever , whatever it was. I think we gotta be honest, and say that we got one job, and it's to make sure these babies all right. And if they can't read, they're not gonna be all right . I mean, you can make it, but it's gonna be tough. Tough. And we got caught slipping. And they had to deal with the aftermath. And I could run from that. I could dress it up and try to make it feel better and look better. But if this is gonna be worth anything to anybody, man, you got one job. And that's why, we tried to get Margo tested, fourth, third grade, fourth grade, all the way up. We kept getting the runaround. Elijah, the stuff he was going through, the family was busy doing this and that, and they moving all the time. And now he's falling behind, because of all of this on top of whatever. Could those same things have happened differently? Could we have waited till the summer to move? Not in the middle of the school year? Could I have not worked the second job? For what? To buy some things. You know what I'm saying? I'm out there working two and three jobs. Teaching is just one job I got. I'm working UPS and Pizza Hut delivery and all that. Did I have to do all that? I just think sometimes, if we gonna be honest, we gotta tighten up. And I'm not just talking to people that look like me. I'm talking to everybody. So , I appreciate what you say, and I take that to heart. I'm not beating myself up over it any more. But I know doggone sure, if I had to do it over again, I'm just hoping that my hindsight is somebody else's foresight. You know? Even if you put 'em in preschool, even if you have money in your pocket. The other thing is that testing — the schools didn't test either one of these kids, these young people. We had to come out the pocket to pay for Margo. I don't know if you know this, baby girl, but we had to pass a hat around to get the money. Poppy, Nana, Grammy , me, your mom. We had to come together to get the money. Man, it's expensive . Testing is expensive. We ain't have it rolling like that. It cost a lot of bread to do that. But what I'd say to parents is, if anything's worth getting a second job, it's that. It's not worth getting a second job so you can buy a nicer car or something. But to get your kid tested for this type of stuff. It shouldn't have to be. But if that's something that's worth it. And then for Elijah ... man, man, I appreciate your perseverance. I was worried, nephew. I ain't gonna lie. I was worried. It spirals quickly. Quickly. When a kid can't read, and life gets a hold of you. It's a cycle. Next thing, you find yourself in situations that you never would've imagined. I'm not blaming you, nephew. I'm just saying it could spiral. Even Margo, she was getting depressed and all that type of stuff. We as a society gotta have more of a focus. But us, as parents — and I also will say this, if I may, which is I'm an educator. I mean, I'm an educator's educator. And I know my brother. He's not an educator. That's not his jam. And so there were times where he would ask me to come to the school for the IEP meetings. The special ed stuff. The meetings with the people. Because it's so intimidating. So I'm coming to talk that talk, all the acronyms and this and that and all this type of stuff. But most parents are overwhelmed. And they need an ally in the building. They need somebody to just say, Hey, hold on, hold on , hold on , stop the games. Stop the cap. She needs to be tested. He needs to be tested. Let's not give 'em the runaround. Let's figure out what we can do. And let's look at how we're teaching. I know I've brought up on the balanced literacy. I understand I'm using units and stuff. Whatever. I get all that. And man, I'm looking at these kids and they don't even have a chance. What am I gonna do? That's an ethical question. That's an ethical question. So, I have a lot of thoughts swirling. I just — I love them both. I hope that somebody benefits from this.
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:Lemme just ask a question, if you don't mind. Or it may just go by the wayside. But I just actually want to know two things. Do you all have any advice for teachers who are trying to do the best they can to teach kids how to read? How can they make sure that they get to everybody? That they don't skip anybody, and that they don't end up having students with situations that get outta hand, 'cause they can't read? Do you have any advice of what they should focus on, or how they should approach it? Any strategies? Anything not to do? Anything TO do? From your experiences, anything work better than other things, or you might wanna speak on?
Margaret Weaver:I mean, for me, I liked one-on-one talking with teachers. Because for the past, especially in high school, they'd always ask in group settings. And then as soon as class end, we'd dip. And I wouldn't really get to talk to the teacher. And I don't really wanna share my business in front of all the other students, 'cause that's kind of embarrassing. So I think pulling students aside, forcing them to come and talk to you — because me, I'm not just gonna voluntarily come up to the teacher and be like, "Hey, by the way, this is happening with me." I mean, I will, but it's gonna take longer. So I think if the teacher's like, "Hey, I've noticed this, that, and the other with you; let's talk about it," and then you talk with the student. But also just being patient, being patient with people. Patience. I can't stress that enough. Just patience with just students. Please.
Susan Lambert:Yeah. That's good.
Kareem Weaver:Elijah, you have anything in terms of how to teach kids to read, or anything that they should know?
Elijah Weaver:Same thing Margo said. Just patience. Actually, checking in with everybody, personally. Whether it's before class, after class, during class. Just seeing if they need help. Taking time. I know the teachers be ready for school to end just like the students, but stretching yourself a little bit. Take that two hours after school to talk to certain kids. Not just certain kids, but every kid. But if you talk to a good majority of kids, when you know they're doing their work during the class, you could talk to a couple, have a couple stay after school. Or just pick. But don't just treat every child the same. It's like when you're raising kids, every child is different. Just because the oldest may learn at a faster pace and got everything set, you might have to take a little bit of time with the middle child, or the younger child, you know? Just just pay attention. Treat 'em like you would treat your kids.
Kareem Weaver:Do you think that the way you were being taught to read in school — I'm talking about in elementary school — is there anything you want to say about that? Lambert, you might help me with this. I'm thinking about it. There's a question there . I'm curious about what you thought about the way they were teaching you how to read. Do you remember it? Is anything sticking out in your mind?
Elijah Weaver:Yeah, they was teaching everybody the same, and expecting the same end result.
Kareem Weaver:But HOW were they teaching it, though? What was going on that wasn't working for you?
Elijah Weaver:I don't know what my classmates did before ... say, I don't know what they did before first grade. I don't know what type of academies, preschools, they went to. I don't know if their parents were homeschooling them. But some of my classmates already came to the class kind of knowing and learning. And I think the teachers ... no, I don't think. I KNOW. The teacher's , basically, "Oh, OK, I got this person and this person." A good majority of classroom was already reading and writing a little bit, and sounding out words and stuff, so they just expected everybody to be doing it. So they just went with the flow. Even if those kids do know how to sound things out and read a little bit, you still gotta go to square one. Sounding words out. Everybody learning at the same pace. It's cool that those kids have a head start. But you can't just like, "Oh, OK, they know what they're doing. You should know how to do this. And oh, OK, we're gonna. ..." You know?
Susan Lambert:So you always felt behind then, you always felt you were behind?
Kareem Weaver:You saying a lot right there. So if some kids knew how to sound out words, because they learned it at home or whatever, preschool, and you didn't know how to sound out words ... I would think in kindergarten and first grade that that would be the main thing: "We're gonna teach y'all how to sound these words out, these sounds, make these words, put it together, make sentences," and all that. If they wasn't doing that, what were they doing?
Elijah Weaver:Writing, tracing. Just, just moving forward. Moving forward. And I don't know what they were doing on the days that I wasn't there. But the days that I was there, that's what we were doing.
Susan Lambert:So you don't remember anybody teaching you the sounds and letters or any of anything?
Elijah Weaver:I went to school up in Newark before. And I remember out there they were teaching the A E I O U.
Kareem Weaver:Vowels.
Elijah Weaver:The syllables. Just things like that. They was having us clap. But every day we doing the same thing. You get what I'm saying? We're focusing on the same words . So now those words are stuck in my head. I know what it looks, because we done clapped it out. We done sounded it out. They done wrote it down. We done traced it. You get what I'm saying? So we working on that for a good two weeks, A good six, seven words. Oh yeah. I got those words down. So if I see those words in the newspaper, I know that that is "Apple." You get what I'm saying?
Kareem Weaver:But they didn't do that with more ... I would think if it's working, then just keep going with it. I don't understand. So what, they didn't just keep going with that?
Susan Lambert:I'm guessing, Kareem , they didn't generalize those sound-spelling patterns.
Kareem Weaver:Oh man.
Elijah Weaver:Yeah. It was just the basic words. And from there, they just assumed that everybody should get the idea. Now, I understand the concept: sounding words out and clapping the syllables. But when you're a little , little , little kid, you gotta keep repeating yourself. You gotta start using that with everything. Whether it's yellow, brown — you have to continuously do that. You can't just like expect us to do it for everything else, after you done taught us those five, six, seven words.
Kareem Weaver:That's huge. I mean, we start with things that work and just do it in a systematic way, to make sure we get those patterns. We get the knowledge and the understanding and build the skill. As opposed to, "Well we did it for the vocabulary list this week, but that's it." Come on, man. Oh, I feel like it was right there! It was right there for 'em ! Right there. They just had to keep going with it.
Susan Lambert:Or the alphabet card. Right? That's what it makes me think about, is like "a is for apple," and so it's on that alphabet card on the wall. But you never got to break that thing apart. Ugh . Ugh.
Kareem Weaver:Margo, do you have any advice for kids? I mean, we talked about teachers, but what about kids and parents? Well, actually, both of y'all, do you have any advice for students and/or parents who might be struggling in school, learning how to read or whatever's going on? What would you say to them? 'Cause they might hear this and they may not know what to do, or what's happening. Y'all have any advice for for kids and parents?
Margaret Weaver:I mean, I feel very repetitive, but I just ... I just wish somebody really kind of sat with me and told me that I wasn't stupid. And that I was OK, because you're gonna struggle in school. That's just what it is. School's not easy, period. And it's even harder when you have dyslexia. Or if you have an attention problem or behavior issue, it's gonna be even harder. But I think you just gotta keep pushing, really. And you are no less important than somebody who doesn't have it. If anything, you might be a little more special, < laugh > when it comes to certain situations. But you're not dumb. You're not slow. You just learn differently, and that's OK. And so you just gotta work just a little harder. Just a little harder. Even if you are working really, really hard already. You just gotta work even harder.
Kareem Weaver:Elijah, you got any advice for the parents? If a kid is struggling to read or what have you? Or even before they start the struggle? What would you say to the parents?
Elijah Weaver:It's OK not to know what to do. But just ask a bunch of questions to other facilitators or teachers, or look into a program outside of school to help with school. 'Cause sometimes parents, they don't know what to do. 'Cause they're not used to it, or that's not how they were brought up, you know? So I can say sometimes they get frustrated with the child or with their self. Or both. You know what I'm saying? So, just try to take a deep breath and ask questions. No question is a [inaudible] question.
Susan Lambert:That's so wise. That is so wise. It's OK not to know what to do; just ask some questions. 'Cause y'all don't come with a manual.
Kareem Weaver:<laugh> . Yeah. I mean, one of the things Margo said earlier was the advice. She said understanding and grace. I almost fell out my chair when she said that. There has to be a level of understanding and grace, that when people are struggling — they don't want to struggle, first of all. But that goes to teachers too. You gotta have be gracious towards your teachers, who are probably doing the best they can , but may not know what to do. And they may have materials that don't even — like you said, Elijah, sound it out and all this; they may not even have that kind of stuff. They may have different kinds of materials. So , having understanding and grace ... but a commitment to figure it out. That's the main thing. OK, I don't know what to do, but we're gonna figure this out. This ain't working, so let's see what we can do. I think that's the attitude that folks gotta have. I'm glad y'all mentioned that, 'cause I think it's really important.
Susan Lambert:That's good. Great questions. Thanks, Kareem .
Kareem Weaver:You got it.
Susan Lambert:Take my job. Go ahead.
Kareem Weaver:<laugh> .
Susan Lambert:We always, we always love having Kareem on . So just so y'all know that I'm a big Kareem Weaver fan. And so since I'm a big Kareem Weaver fan, I'm also a big Margo and Elijah fan, too. So there you go.
Kareem Weaver:See, y'all got a fan club now. <laugh> .
Susan Lambert:That's right. <laugh> .
Kareem Weaver:I love you guys. I'm grateful for you sharing your stories. Hopefully some other parent out there recognize: One ... look, if your kid is not getting it, don't wait. Don't wait, don't wait. Don't wait. That's the hustle, that, "Oh, let's give 'em more time." Nah, nah , nah. Don't give 'em more time. You need to go up there and see about your child. I'm just telling you: Learn from my mistake. But to the kids ... well, y'all not kids anymore <laugh>. I'm just grateful that y'all didn't give up. And I'm real proud of y'all. Thank y'all for doing this.
Susan Lambert:I'm just going to echo what Kareem said. But I'd love to end — you guys are doing so great, right? Like the resilience, you have hope in your voices , you have excitement, you have things to look forward to. Margo, what's your next big goal? What's your next big hope for yourself?
Margaret Weaver:My next big hope? I don't know . ... I think the only thing that I'm really hopeful for right now is doing good in my first year of college. That's what I'm really focused on, if I'm being honest. I love art, I love softball. But my goal for the end of college is to be decked in gold, personally, with my tassels and my little ribbons. And yeah, that's my goal. <laugh> . So, this first year is really me just focusing on my work and kind of getting outta my shell and making my own friends and networking. I'm excited for that. I really am.
Susan Lambert:That's great. You sound excited. I know you're gonna do great. Elijah, what about you? What's your hope? Your next big hope?
Elijah Weaver:Honestly, I don't know. I'm just taking it a day at a time. I do want to go back to school. But like, next year. I don't know what I wanna do yet. So that's why I'm, like, not not acting on it. 'Cause I'm still trying to think things out, you know? I don't know what direction I'm headed right now. I just work like 100+ hours.
Susan Lambert:One day at a time and staying focused is a great thing. That's awesome.
Elijah Weaver:Staying outta trouble.
Susan Lambert:That's awesome. Well, this has been such an honor for me, and such a treat. Thank you for sharing your stories. Kareem, thank you ... just thank you for you, and your commentary , and coming along on the journey with us. So we appreciate all of your time.
Kareem Weaver:It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. I'm sorry we ran out of time. I had a couple more questions for y'all. But listen, I appreciate y'all making the time to join. I've been on this thing a couple times. But it's always good to hear from young people, who out there trying to make their way. So I appreciate both y'all. And you too. Sister Lambert, I appreciate you too.
Susan Lambert:Yeah, thanks Elijah and Margo.
Margaret Weaver:No problem. Thank you for having us.
Elijah Weaver:It was good being here with you guys.
Susan Lambert:Thanks so much for listening to this special Dyslexia Awareness Month episode of Science of Reading: The Podcast, featuring Elijah, Margo, and Kareem Weaver. Check out the show notes for more information on Kareem's organization, FULCRUM: Full and Complete Reading is a Universal Mandate. We'll also have links to some of our recent episodes that go deep into the research on dyslexia. Let us know what you thought of this episode in our Facebook discussion group, Science of Reading: The Community. Science of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify. For more information on how Amplify leverages the Science of Reading, go to amplify.com/ckla. Next week we're launching Season 8 of the podcast. This season we'll be focused on the importance of knowledge and knowledge-building. We hope you'll enjoy this sneak peek of what's to come.
Speaker :Really, that's our legacy to them, is the world's knowledge about the things that have happened and the world that we live in. But it's their birthright.
Speaker 2:I like to think about vocabulary not as individual words, but as a set of labels for ideas.
Speaker 3:Read-alouds really are the way to build language comprehension. And just as they're so effective when we think about sort of the typical early childhood experience of a read-aloud, a teacher in a rocking chair, those benefits continue in upper elementary school as well as middle school.
Speaker 4:Not all students have equal opportunities to visit museums, science centers, all of those things that we know create unevenness even within one classroom, let alone between schools.
Susan Lambert:That's just some of what's ahead on Season 8, launching next week. Thanks so much for listening.