S8 E6: Like teacher, like student: Showing up as your full self, with Dr. Jasmine Rogers

Returning guest and recent doctoral degree recipient Dr. Jasmine Rogers rejoins the podcast to discuss findings from her research on Black language and teacher perceptions of Black language. Dr. Rogers shares strategies for how educators can better serve students by allowing them to be more themselves in the classroom. She also shares specific teacher approaches she's observed that listeners can apply in their own classrooms. Lastly Dr. Rogers inspires listeners with emotional stories—including her own—about educators learning and growing, and posits that starting with introspection can often have the greatest impact on the classroom.

Show notes:

• Listen: Jasmine’s first appearance on Science of Reading: The Podcast
• Read: “The Importance of Phonemic Awareness Instruction for African American Students” by Ramona T. Pittman, Marianne Rice, Esther Garza, and Myriam J. Guerra
• Read: “Difference or Deficit in Speakers of African American English?” by Linda M. Bland-Stewart
• Reference: “Phonemic Inventories and Cultural and Linguistic Information Across Languages,” American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (ASHA)

Quotes:

"You address people as human beings because they're human and that's the right thing to do." —Dr. Jasmine Rogers

"The history of our country, the history of who we are as individuals in our families, absolutely impacts who we are as teachers and how we show up in the classroom." —Dr. Jasmine Rogers

"A lot of change is just being open to feedback, being curious, and ensuring that whatever you are doing, you are not causing harm to students." —Dr. Jasmine Rogers

"If I was able to make a change, you 110 percent can make a change. And a lot of that is just being open to feedback, being curious, and ensuring that whatever you are doing, you are not causing harm to students." —Dr. Jasmine Rogers

Episode Content Timestamps*

2:00: Recap of the last episode with Dr. Jasmine Rogers
4:00: How teachers respond when students use Black language in their lessons and how that impacts student behavior
11:00: Observation on teacher moves in the classroom, pre and post professional development
23:00: Tips for educators wanting to be more affirming in the classroom
26:00: Resources for learning the phonological features of different languages & the importance of relationship building and knowing your students
31:00: How we teach irregularly spelled words & syllable stresses
35:00: Emotional stories from educators & final encouragement from Dr. Jasmine Rogers

*Timestamps are approximate, rounded to nearest minute

Transcript

Jasmine Rogers: 0:31

One of the concepts that I wanted to get across is that when we're talking about language, especially when we're talking about different languages across cultures, we need to discuss the why sometimes.

Susan Lambert: 0:43

This is Susan Lambert. And welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast, from Amplify, where the Science of Reading lives. Back in February, we were joined for a fascinating conversation by then doctoral student, Jasmine Rogers. Jasmine was in the midst of her dissertation research on Black language and the language comprehension strand of Scarborough's Reading Rope.

Jasmine Rogers: 1:06

There are over 160 dialects of the English language, which means there are 160 ways to speak English correctly.

Susan Lambert: 1:13

At the end of that conversation, I said this, "Jasmine, thank you so much for joining us! We will catch up with you when you're further along in your research." Well, since then, Dr. Jasmine Rogers has earned her doctorate, and now she's returning to the podcast to share more of what she's learned from her fascinating research. Please join me in welcoming back to the show, Dr. Jasmine Rogers. Jasmine , it's so nice to have you back on the podcast for another episode. And this time we get to call you Dr. Jasmine Rogers. Welcome back!

Jasmine Rogers: 1:50

Thank you! And it feels so good to hear you say that.

Susan Lambert: 1:53

<Laugh>. I bet it does! It's quite an accomplishment. So, for our listeners, this is the second round with Jasmine. And I would love if you could just talk a little bit, Jasmine, about why you were on the first time. Because it had a little bit of something to do with why you're now a doctor, right?

Jasmine Rogers: 2:10

Yeah , the first time that I was on the podcast, I was discussing Black language in structured literacy. And, specifically, thinking about meaning and the top part of Scarborough's Rope. So we're talking about how words have different meanings depending upon the language or context in which they're used. And how a student who was so brilliant inspired me to get into this research, and really look at, "What does Black language look like in structured literacy lessons? How are teachers responding to it?" And really try to think about concrete next steps for teachers.

Susan Lambert: 2:40

Can you remind us of that story of the brilliant student? 'Cause it's a great one.

Jasmine Rogers: 2:46

Yes, and he gets lots of hugs. And every time I see him, he definitely gets a pack of blue Takis, just as he requests, because he's amazing. When I was a reading specialist, I was working on a lesson for a student on short "a" and we were working on decoding CVC words. So we did the entire lesson. And then, at the end, we were looking at the text, the decodable text, that he was to read. And try and apply these new phonic skills. And he read the text. And the text had the word "cap" in it. Now, for the student who speaks Black language fluently, the word "cap" had a different meaning than what the text had intended. So for him, "cap" was to lie. Or sometimes you say, "No cap." Just to ensure that, like, you really understand, this is not an exaggeration, this is indeed the truth. And he told me that the sentence that he was reading didn't make any sense. I ended up, as you know from the last podcast, I changed the word to "hat." So we could still look at that short "a," right. And then I had another student, in the same day, who didn't have any difficulty with decoding. She read everything fluently. And then. At the end, she came up with a different meaning than what the text had intended. And her meaning was absolutely correct when you were looking at Black language. So those two students inspired me to look at what Black language looks like in structured literacy lessons. And really focus on the teachers, because I've started to realize that it's not necessarily anything a student needs to do different. I'll read these research articles, and they'll say, like, "What is the impact of African American English on ..." blah, blah, blah? Well, it really impacts our thoughts, our actions, our beliefs, and our perceptions on the students who bring a brilliant and magnificent culture to the classroom. So, fast forward to now <laugh> , the research I did for my doctoral program. I looked at what the teachers were doing in the lessons when students did speak Black language in their structured literacy lessons.

Susan Lambert: 4:43

And so it was all sort of focused on, then, teacher perceptions, and not so much on the student aspect of it.

Jasmine Rogers: 4:51

Well, funny you ask. I ended up doing three layers of this study. Because why be simple when you can be difficult when you're doing your own dissertation <laugh> . So, I not only looked at perceptions of teachers, I looked at their actions. And then, I ended up interviewing them later to see if there was a correlation. 'Cause I can look at somebody, and observe them doing a lesson, but I don't necessarily know what's going on in their head. So, after lessons, I would interview the tutors to kind of get a better understanding. 'Cause, again, I can interpret what I think a reason is for why somebody made a move, but, until I ask them, I don't know for sure. So. Multiple layers to this study.

Susan Lambert: 5:32

Yeah, that's awesome. And, I wanna go back just a little bit, because I love that you talked about structured literacy. You talked about the decodables. You talked about replacing a word for a student, so that they can gain the meaning. But we don't often think about that meaning layer or meaning impact. But, going back to just thinking about helping kids decode, and put meaning to it, and thinking about it from a meaning angle, did you find any other research that was similar to what you were doing while you were doing your lit review?

Jasmine Rogers: 6:07

That's an excellent question. I don't believe that I found anything that was structured literacy and meaning. As you know, as a doctoral student yourself, we are encouraged to get as narrow as humanly possible.

Susan Lambert: 6:20

That's right.

Jasmine Rogers: 6:20

I have read books about how meaning has been interpreted in everyday-life context, like, having a conversation. How had it been interpreted inside a school with, like, giving directions, or what have you. But I haven't read about what happens when a student has a meaning of a word in their brain, and they vocalize that within the classroom context. Specifically thinking about, you know, using the Science of Reading to help students learn how to read. So, I hadn't. And I've seen a lot of implications for, or impact of, Black English, African American English, on structured literacy, Science of Reading. But I hadn't seen the intersection of, "OK, let's look at students in these lessons." 'Cause, we know what structured literacy is. We know what it looks like. We can watch. Like, let's see what actually is happening. Because we can talk about what could happen, but let's see it.

Susan Lambert: 7:15

Yeah, what I think is so interesting about that is that both of those students had enough awareness, enough metacognition there to understand that this doesn't make sense. And I wonder about the students that don't have that awareness. That just read the words. And they're like, "Whoa!" So, that's really interesting.

Jasmine Rogers: 7:33

Yeah, I think about that. I think about a lot of things, to be fair. A LOT <laugh>. I think we talked about this in the pre-call , but my one student who corrected his teacher. And after I saw him correct his teacher, I noticed in my coaching practice where students were so confident, and so sure of themselves, that they're like, "My teacher's the one who actually has it wrong." And I've been really invested in looking at that. Because I love that students are able to be confident and say, "Actually, I'm not sure that that's right." And to me, that just shows that they have, again, a higher understanding, and a great self-awareness that something in this context, in this conversation, in this book doesn't make sense. And I need it to make sense. We're meaning-making machines. That's what we do as people.

Susan Lambert: 8:19

Yeah, I love that. Meaning-making machine <laugh> . It's true! Can you just remind us how that student corrected his teacher?

Jasmine Rogers: 8:26

Oh, well, it wouldn't be a reminder, because it's in the dissertation <laugh>. So, this is probably new to the world, but, in the actual study that I did, I watched tutors. They are undergraduate students teaching structured literacy lessons. And they were teaching Black language-speaking students. So, one of the students, he had some toys that he kept with him, just for emotional support or what have you. As a reminder to the listeners, our students are more than just, like, little robots who decode text . They're people, and they have feelings. So, this student had a feeling that he needed these items with him in order to be successful. And he had just moved to a different part of the room, and he wanted to know where his little friends were, his toys. And the teacher said something along the lines of, "Oh, they're sitting over there. You know, they're hanging out." And he goes, "They chilling." And she was like, "Excuse me?" And he was like, "Yeah, they chilling. They're over there, they chilling." More context in their discussion later on, but I was so proud of him. I think she used the word "relaxing" and then "resting," and all of that. Which is great, right ? Let's get lots of vocabulary words in there. But he is like, "Ma'am, these two individuals over here, my toys, they are chilling. They're kicking it." <Laugh>. I need you to understand that. They're chilling <laugh>. But I thought that was wonderful and beautiful. And I've watched that happen. And, fortunately, in my brain, right in this moment, I can't think of a specific example in Black language, but I was talking to a teacher, a former teacher, who I actually worked with. She tells me a story about this student who speaks Spanish. And every day he would say, "You know, I'm gonna go get my yacket." And the teacher says, "Oh, you're going to get your jacket." And he's like, "Yes, I'm gonna go get my yacket." The student never said, "jacket" for the entire school year. We joke, again, the student was like, "Yeah, that's the sound, that's the language that I speak." It is what it is. But I think there was two things there. One, the student said what he said. Even if the teacher said, "jacket," he wasn't picking up that she wanted him to change his language. Also, the teacher didn't say, "Why?" So, he's happily going about his day, and he's just saying "yacket." Because that's what he knows. I'm talking about this thing that I put on my body to go outside. And you're talking about a thing that I put on my body to go outside. So, cool. <laugh>

Susan Lambert: 10:58

< Laugh > . That's so great. That's great. So, going back to your research, you were really focusing mostly on teachers. Talk to us a little bit about what you found.

Jasmine Rogers: 11:10

I think in order to understand findings, I do need to go back and explain a little bit. The study, what I did is I looked at tutors who were teaching students structured literacy lessons. And, as a part of the program, they had to do weekly professional learning sessions. And so, I went and observed to see what is actually happening in the environment. See what moves the teachers were making. So that I could develop a professional learning experience for them that was tailored specifically to what I saw. So, that was first round of observations. Took that information, did a professional learning experience where we talked about the history of Black language, we talked about different phonological features. We talked about morphosyntax. all the fun language-y stuff. And then we talked about teacher moves. We talked about what I saw. And we talked through a couple of things that they could consider doing in the future. And then, I interviewed the tutors to see, one, did they understand the professional learning experience. And to see if they could identify any teaching moves that they could make in their future lessons with students. And so, what I ended up finding is there was an overwhelming willingness of tutors to make changes in response to their students' needs. Which was what we definitely wanna see from educators. And they were able to, at the end of the study, identify specific features of Black language. And it was very calming for me, because a lot of the research, the first thing they say is educate teachers on Black language. Teach teachers about Black English. And then that's, like, it. So now I see that. So I taught teachers about Black English. Now what? Now they're identifying instructional changes that they can make, and also identifying within themselves some of the things that they brought to the classroom that weren't necessarily in the best interest of students as far as, you know, what they thought about students, what they thought about themselves, how they see the world. And, ideally, it makes a positive change.

Susan Lambert: 13:07

Yeah, that's great! I think first I'd like to talk about some of those teacher moves that you saw and that you maybe said, "Oh, this needs some professional development." And then, what did you see in terms of teacher moves post-that?

Jasmine Rogers: 13:23

So I will name that I, unfortunately due to time, which was college spring break, student spring break, and end of the school year rapidly approaching, the timeline got a little messed up. So I only got to do one post-observation. I had to use a lot of self-reported from the teacher. But I will say, that prior to the professional-learning session, I saw teachers doing a couple of things. One move I called was continuation. Basically, you're having a conversation, a student uses Black language, and you continue going as if it's a regular conversation. That was, in my mind as a researcher, the desired response, right? We wanna continue having conversations. Then, the next one that I saw was recasting. So, recasting is a technique that often people use where a student says something. It could be a pronunciation something. It could be something in a language. And then, the teacher says that back to them. And they say that in the language that the teacher would like them to produce. Yacket and jacket, that's a perfect example of recasting. Then, there is repetition, which is where a teacher would repeat items back to the student. And then there was one that, I'm calling it confirmation or affirmation now, or praise, where a student would say something in Black language, and they would either praise the student. Oftentimes, it was during the reading portion. So they would praise the student for doing a great job reading. Or, they would somehow confirm or affirm that the student said something, right? The difference between the confirmation or affirmation and the continuation is basically the awareness and acknowledgement of it. So, continuation sometimes the teacher would not necessarily be aware, but the confirmation and praise, from my perspective, they were able to identify and continue on.

Susan Lambert: 15:09

And so then in the professional development , what was the goal of that development? And where did you want teachers to get to?

Jasmine Rogers: 15:17

So what I wanted teachers to examine was why recasting? And so we talked about, basically, that teachers want to define a nice way to correct a student. And so, they thought if they hear what the student says, and then they say it in this way, that they believe to be the correct way, that the student will repeat after them. 'Cause, you know, they're in charge. And students are supposed to just follow along with what we do <laugh>. So, that was wonderful that we had a discussion about that, because one of the concepts that I wanted to get across is that when we're talking about language, especially when we're talking about different languages across cultures, we need to discuss the why sometimes. So the why of recasting, like bringing up the jacket and yacket example. If a student sees the grapheme "j," they would say, "j," in English. But if they see the grapheme "j" in Spanish, that is a different sound. So, having a conversation of the why can help bring a greater understanding to this. Why I am asking you to do something a certain way?

Susan Lambert: 16:22

Did you talk to teachers at all about this concept of recasting? You said you talked to 'em about why they're doing it. What was the awareness that you brought to that conversation?

Jasmine Rogers: 16:33

Well, the wonderful thing is in education, I'm not the holder of all the knowledge that I just pour into these teachers. They taught me a lot. And it was wonderful to hear from them, you know, as a researcher. 'Cause I wanna know why a lot of them really, genuinely believed in what I mentioned in the last podcast about Standard Language Ideology. They really believed that there was only one way to do something; and they wanted to make sure that they were doing right. And they seemed to want to do right in service of children. Then, when we talked about that there are more ways to speak English than one, they realized , "Yeah, indeed. There are multiple ways to speak English." And I actually knew that, somehow, but I really thought that this one way was it. Some of it from feelings of, "I really want the students to succeed." Some of it came from feelings of, "Well, I'm from this part of the country, and I never got to talk that way, and it's impacting me now. So I wanna make sure it's right." Like, there's a l ot of reasons why, but there s eemed to be a general, "This is the one way to do it and we have to do it this way." The great thing that I learned from tutors, and that I was able to talk to future iterations of tutors about, was affirmation. Really making sure that our students, again, are not these like s tandstill beings that just are like, "Teach me <laugh>." They come with their own experiences. A nd we have to do what we can to honor those experiences, including when a student says, "Duh d og jumped over the fence ." Well, that's great, because in Black language, "the" i s p ronounced " duh." A nd that i t absolutely g reat a nd wonderful. So we can affirm and confirm that what they said i s correct, and continue to teach them and help them be happy beings in a classroom, who are then more willing to engage. And more willing to learn, because they're excited about what's going on.

Susan Lambert: 18:19

So that was one area that you actually brought them a new understanding, in terms of Black English and how to interact with students. Were there other ways that you actually helped with this professional development for teachers or tutors?

Jasmine Rogers: 18:33

Yeah, so I designed it, of course, as a part of the research. We ended up talking a lot about history. And we needed to talk about the history in our country that we often try not to talk about, because it is painful. And really talk about why certain languages are looked at negatively. Why some languages are looked at as the standard. And having those conversations, and really getting to a place where we're understanding that who we are as people, the history of our country, the history of who we are as individuals in our families absolutely impacts who we are as teachers. And how we show up in the classroom. I think that was very powerful for the tutors. And I'm very fortunate that, in my daytime work at the DC Reading Clinic, we've been able to use some of the research to better develop our professional-development sessions for our program. And I was able to use our research for our summer teachers, and it was wonderful to see teachers getting a better understanding of themselves. A really full picture of what students bring to the classroom. And really starting to see that some of the moves that they were making were not necessarily in service of students. It was in service of a feeling they had from childhood. Or a way that they were concerned about being perceived, and not necessarily based in the student can read, I'm going to teach the student how to decode. Or what have you. Because, if a student says, "Duh," they are still decoding. They have made the phoneme-to-grapheme connection. And they're reading!

Susan Lambert: 20:00

Yeah! I'm assuming that you had to do a little bit of digging in and learning yourself about the history. What was it like for you to, sort of, review that history in order to bring it to the teachers?

Jasmine Rogers: 20:11

If I'm completely honest, it was painful. It was causing a lot of questions for me. It was causing me to really reflect on who I am as a person, how I showed up as a teacher, how I show up every day. But it was a good process for me to go through and really have, kind of, a reckoning with things that I really thought to be true. If you would've talked to my friends, you know, two years ago, three years ago, they'd be like, "This woman is the grammar police." But really, just like digging into where those feelings are coming from. And then seeing how they could impact me as a teacher right now, as a coach, as a researcher. And, like, what lens I'm looking at things in. It was a challenging process, but I do believe that I'm better because of it.

Susan Lambert: 20:59

What was the response from those that you were delivering this professional development to ? How was the response on their end?

Jasmine Rogers: 21:06

This summer's professional development that I did at work was probably one of the most powerful experiences I've had as an adult. It was ... I almost got , sorry, emotional <laugh> .

Susan Lambert: 21:19

Oh, you can get emotional. It's OK <laugh> .

Jasmine Rogers: 21:23

For context, the folks that we train this summer are in our classrooms, in our public school system. And we train them on structured literacy for about two weeks. Our goal is to help them understand various components of it. Be able to implement structured literacy lessons. have a good understanding. And as teachers in Washington, DC, we have a large population of students who are multilingual. And that includes our Black-English- and Spanish-speaking students. Which makes up the majority population of our school system. So, it was very important for us to cover this material. I found that it was eye-opening for some teachers. It helped them, kind of, go through the same reflection process that I went through. But it was just beautiful to see how affirming the teachers were to one another. And even in some of our discussions, just seeing how they could connect who they are and how they show up in the classroom in a positive way to Black language. And then realize that, even though I see myself this way and I'm proud of who I am, I have accidentally done something to a student. And I'm saying accidentally, because I don't think people really mean to cause harm. And then, just talking through how they can be more affirming to their students, to themselves. ... I'm sorry, <laugh>, I'm just thinking of all these beautiful teachers. I'm trying not to cry, but really how they can make sure that they are showing up fully as who they are for their students and not with the goal of the end result being a great classroom culture, or what have you. But, by being themselves they end up creating an environment that just makes it a great place to learn. And a place where students feel loved. And a place where students can be themselves. It was phenomenal! And, as you can see, it gets me emotional. And gives me chills every time I think about these teachers. And I'm so excited to coach them. They're fantastic!

Susan Lambert: 23:18

That's so great. Well, what about tips? What tips do you have for educators who maybe wanna be a little bit more affirming of the students that are in their classrooms?

Jasmine Rogers: 23:27

Honestly, I think I said this the last time I was on the podcast, but take your time. Take your time to have conversations about why with students. And I do understand that having a conversation about the history of language in this country may be a challenging task for a kindergarten student. But students are very aware. They can see that their teacher sometimes talks differently than them. Or that their classmate talks one way and I talk another way. Having discussions about our differences are very helpful. But, concretely, one of the things we talked about is how to make sure, during assessments, we are appropriately assessing students. So that is one tip I can give y our listeners. We do phonemic awareness and phonological awareness assessments at the reading clinic. Sometimes we will see where a student will ask t hem to identify a phoneme in a word. Or we'll ask them to blend a word, or what have you. And the phonemes that they a re producing may be different than what's on the paper. However, they're still saying something correctly in Black language. So I'm just gonna use the word, "that." So, if you have a student, what are the sounds in "that?" And they say, "at," that is fine i n Generalized American English. Some of our students this summer replied with, "d-a-t," we did not mark i t wrong. That is absolutely not a n error. We told the teachers to, you know, note how they pronounced it, but that is nothing to be flagged, because what we were looking at is, like, if I flagged every single feature of Black language, does that mean the student has an actual phonological issue? No. But if a student has a couple of things going on, it ends up showing up as they're maybe well below or below, or something that might not actually be the case. So actually being cognizant of what t hose features of language are, and what they're saying in the assessment, they're not wrong. We're marking them, and we're having a discussion about them. And luckily for them, they have coaches.

Susan Lambert: 25:34

Lucky for them they have you <laugh> .

Jasmine Rogers: 25:36

Yes <laugh> . Even for people who don't have me, it is looking at the phonological features of Black language, where they are used and how they're pronounced. So, one of the things that we talked about is the difference between, and I'm focusing a lot on "th" digraph today. But, we'll go with it <laugh>. Noticing where in the position of the word the "th" digraph appears, and if it's voiced or unvoiced. Because in Black language it can be /v/ or it can be /d/. Or it can be "th". Depending upon where it is. So we had some very specific conversations about different words that we've said or pronounced and where they fall. And that actually helps some of my teachers understand the difference between voiced and non- voiced, which was beautiful. And then understanding that if a student said, "fat," as opposed to, "dat," when we're looking for the word, "that," well, the word "fat" is actually wrong. That is not in the phonology of Black language, nor is it in the phonology that we were looking at. So you do need to be completely aware. And they found that to be helpful for them.

Susan Lambert: 26:38

So, this goes back to professional development for teachers, to understand, sort of, the structure of Black English. Then, if I'm a teacher sitting out there without Dr. Rogers as my coach, or without somebody else as a coach, where does somebody go to learn about that?

Jasmine Rogers: 26:56

There are a couple places. Of course, you know, we can read a lot of articles. Recently, in The Reading League Journal, there was an article by Ramona Pittman. She talks beautifully about very asset-based language. Uses very descriptive language about Black language. And then, she provides several exercises, at the end, that teachers can do, or that they can examine in the classroom. For a teacher who does not have Dr. Rogers, or Dr. Ramona Pittman, or any of these other brilliant doctors that I've read, there are tips. There are resources through the ASHA website, the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association's website where, for every language that I could possibly think of, that we teach at least in DCPS, they have guides for the way that words are pronounced in different languages, which can help you with an understanding of why your students may be pronouncing things in a specific manner.

Susan Lambert: 27:48

That's a great resource. I think I've heard Dr. Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan talk about that. Talk about, you know, know the students that are in your classroom. And you may not know their languages, but there are resources to help you understand the construct of their language. So you can support them more.

Jasmine Rogers: 28:04

Yeah, and a lot of it really comes down to that relationship building and knowing students. And I know I briefly talked to you about this, maybe during the pre-call, but we have to remember that our students may have, you know, a bad day. It might be raining outside, and their socks are soggy. And you have to address who they are as human beings to get them to learn at some point. Or not even to get them to learn. You address people as human beings, 'cause they're human, and that's the right thing to do. And if you engage and see your kids as humans, then it's really helpful to get them engaged . And I think that they become more confident. And if you say something that's different than what they say, they might correct you <laugh>.

Susan Lambert: 28:43

That's awesome! We'll be right back for this knowledge-focused season of the podcast. We've asked the finalists for the 2023 Science of Reading Star Awards to offer some of their thoughts and advice on knowledge-building throughout this season. We'll share some of their insights this time around. We're going to hear from Callie Wheeler, the division instructional coach for Patrick County Public Schools in Virginia. Callie was a finalist for the 2023 ESSER Ace Award.

Callie Wheeler: 29:18

So, in thinking about how to incorporate more knowledge into our division, our schools, and our classrooms, I think, first and foremost, we can't be skipping science and social studies. I think, oftentimes, those are the first two subjects that tend to get the boot to make way for math and ELA . But I think we need to remember that in science and social studies, students are exposed to a variety of topics. They're able to build content knowledge and access their background knowledge on topics. And they're also exposed to really rich vocabulary. So I think if we can carve out time for those two subjects, we're going to be able to build on students' knowledge. Another thing that I think that we've done in years past is we've really focused on reading strategies in isolation. But instead, we need to be learning these reading strategies through rich topics. I know that CKLA aims to do that, whether it be through the medieval times, mythology, ancient empires, ecosystems. So I think as long as we remember that, we can still teach reading strategies, but it needs to be embedded within the content that our students are learning.

Susan Lambert: 30:31

That was Callie Wheeler, division instructional coach for Patrick County Public Schools in Virginia. For more information on the Science of Reading Star Awards, visit amplify.com/sor-star-awards. And now, back to our conversation with Dr. Jasmine Rogers. So I know there were a lot of learnings that you had. Some were written up in your dissertation, some didn't make it into the dissertation. Anything you'd like to highlight about learnings that you had through this process?

Jasmine Rogers: 31:08

There are so many things that I learned, <laugh>. I can't even begin to name them. I have several ideas. But, one of the ideas that I did have was thinking about how we teach words. So, thinking about how we teach irregularly spelled words. I'll go back to "the," because we're on "th" today, so might as well go.

Susan Lambert: 31:26

We're gonna do it, yep.

Jasmine Rogers: 31:27

So if I were to teach "the" as a heart word we call it, then I would put a heart for kindergartners over the "t-h" and the "e," because the "t-h" is temporarily irregular. We don't know that "t-h" together makes the sound. But, let's say we do know that. I might put a heart over the "t-h" for a Black-language speaker, because the "t-h" in Black language in the initial position is going to be making "duh." And the "e" of course I'll have a heart over it, because it doesn't say "eh" or "e" says "ah," "the." So thinking about what it looks like to teach heart words with student language in mind, as opposed to how we teach heart words with just, like, generalized English in mind. So, like I said, for a student who's, like, above kindergarten, I probably wouldn't put a heart over that. But for a student who's above kindergarten, or if I've introduced a "th" digraph already, I might put a heart over that for a student who has a different linguistic system than what I'm teaching in the classroom. I also am really curious about this stress on the syllable. I'm wondering what does it look like to use the stress on the syllable to teach spelling? So, for many people, the word " police" is pronounced " puh-lees." So, if I were to spell it phonetically, it would be like "p-u-h" is that first syllable. So, if you think about how to spell " police," and I know that "l-i-c-e" doesn't follow our CVCe rule, so we talk about that. But I might talk about how we know a syllable is open or closed. Thinking about the word. So, "po" I've got the, the " o." It's an open syllable; "p-o" I can mark it and divide it there. And then I mark the rest as what would be a CVCe. But we know that that's spelled differently. I can think of now the word hotel. So in Black language, oftentimes you put the emphasis on the "h-o," the "ho-tel," as opposed t o " hotel ," which I've heard, and I can't even say it the way that I've heard people say.

Susan Lambert: 33:30

Let me see if I can say it. "Hotel."

Jasmine Rogers: 33:33

Yes. And, those of you who listen to music, you'll say, "hotel, motel , holiday inn." You can finish the lyric yourself <laugh> . So, thinking about how we can use that to spell, because if you were to do "h-o-t" and divide it "e-l," then it would be "hot - el" which is not how we pronounce. We definitely have the emphasis on the "o." So "h-o" we're gonna add our divider there. And that's an open syllable. Again, this is nothing scientific. This is my curious brain of where do we put stress in words. Or the word "July." Again, one I cannot help.

Susan Lambert: 34:14

July.

Jasmine Rogers: 34:15

So you say, "July." Like, I would say, like, "j-u-h-l-y." But a lot of folks who speak Black language say, "July." So, if I were to put the "u," right? Use that as an open syllable. I could teach spelling , using the asset-based Black language. Again, I told you I have a lot to think about <laugh> .

Susan Lambert: 34:35

You do. And you've also provided a couple of good dissertation topics for those folks that are looking to get a doctoral degree. So maybe you can be their advisor <laugh>.

Jasmine Rogers: 34:45

I'm certainly open to help, but I don't know that advising role . Thank you to my advisor. But woo , <laugh>.

Susan Lambert: 34:54

Any other takeaways that you took from your research? It's such a process, right? And I'm sure you're probably still thinking through all of what you've done, and all of what you have. But are there any other lessons that you'd like to share?

Jasmine Rogers: 35:07

So, I'm thinking of the personal aspect and the human aspect. 'Cause I spent a considerable amount of time, in my last chapter of the dissertation, thinking about my process, my thoughts about language, how this was very personal to me, and how it developed. But I also wanna think about the stories that people have been telling me. So, as you know, I have been presenting at conferences. I've been leading professional-development sessions. Honestly, if there are people on the street who just wanna talk, I'm often talking about Black language. But what I love is talking to my friends and family, and people that I meet, about their stories. And hearing what they've experienced in the classroom. What they've experienced in life as it relates to language has been so heartbreaking, uplifting, exciting, full of humor. And I think that I shouldn't be the only one who hears these stories, because I'm very full as a human, right? I am feeling love. I'm feeling the angst. I'm feeling the excitement. All of these things that come with who we are and how we speak. And I want to figure out a way to turn those stories into something. So I don't know if I should be writing a book. Maybe I should be writing these beautiful stories down. There is so much out there that I believe that if people heard folks that I've interacted with talk, that they would be very moved in the way that I've been moved.

Susan Lambert: 36:27

Do you have a really good example of that? One of those stories that you could share?

Jasmine Rogers: 36:32

Well , I have multiple. But, I was at a conference in New York, and I spoke to a woman who attended my session. She was from Haiti. So she's Haitian. And she has an accent. She speaks French. She speaks Haitian Creole. I believe she speaks Spanish and she speaks English. So this woman is multilingual. She can read in multiple languages, but was told that she had to go to diction classes in order to teach students. And that broke my heart, because the student population that she was teaching was Haitian. And when I talked to this woman, who was speaking to me in her very Caribbean accent, she spoke to me in such a beautiful manner that I completely understood every single word that she was saying. And I'm like, "Why would anybody change the beauty of this for you to reach a population of students who sound and look just like you?" And she was saying that she felt so many different feelings about herself, and none of them were very positive, until we talked during that session, where she really felt affirmed that who she was, and how she spoke, and who she showed up as, as a multiple-lingual woman is a beautiful and wonderful thing. And it was just so brilliant. I just felt so good talking to her. We hugged each other, we took a picture together. I just like to hear the process that she went through, and now she feels very comfortable in saying to students, "Yeah, there are multiple ways to speak languages." She speaks, like, four or five of 'em! <Laugh>. And she's going to help her students learn how to read, which is the goal. And also, they speak multiple languages, keep them encouraged and excited.

Susan Lambert: 38:03

That's right. Wow! Well, maybe you do have a book, or maybe you have a new podcast that you could launch all about Black English and all about languages.

Jasmine Rogers: 38:15

Yeah, but this talking part is a lot more fluid than the writing portion, you know? <Laugh> that spending time writing those 159 pages just was a lot <laugh>.

Susan Lambert: 38:28

So what's next for you? And what do you hope your next steps are going to be?

Jasmine Rogers: 38:35

My hope is that I can take what I've been doing and turn it into something, again, that's meaningful for teachers. So, while I am very satisfied with how our summer training went, and that I was able to literally apply everything that I learned for the teachers, I wanna see how I can help more people. Or at least expose more people to the idea and possibilities that there are multiple ways to speak languages. And that students can learn how to read, and they can read and say things in their own language. And, they've showed you that they know how to read and it's appropriate. I want to continue to apply that work to another part of our program at the clinic. But, again, I guess I want to do what we talked about earlier. I wanna figure out, like, the way that we pronounce different syllables and words. Where we put the stress. Could that be helpful for spelling? What does it look like to teach some of these irregular words using a student's home language? Whatever I do next, I want to make sure that it's affirming to students and affirming to the language that students speak in their houses, and in their communities, and churches, and ice cream shops, and everywhere else they go. And I want it to be a great experience.

Susan Lambert: 39:47

That's really encouraging. And, you know, when you said that, it makes me think of educators right now, that are doing the hard work in schools, that may be curious about questions like that. And you don't have to have a doctoral degree to be able to pursue those interesting questions, and have that curiosity that leads you to some answers within your own context.

Jasmine Rogers: 40:08

100%! And teachers out there who are listening, I want you to be encouraged that, as you heard in the last podcast, I made mistakes. I am a Black woman who grew up in a household with, as I say in my dissertation, a generalized American-speaking parent, English-speaking parent, and a Black-English-speaking parent. And I had a lot of thoughts and things, and the way my personality developed, and how I believed who I was absolutely showed up in the classroom. I'm a person who has a lot of experience with Black language, and I had some unfortunate ideals about it that carried into the classroom. If I was able to make a change, you 110% can make a change. And a lot of that is just being open to feedback, being curious, and ensuring that whatever you are doing, you are not causing harm to students. You can do it!

Susan Lambert: 40:58

That feels like a great place to end. So Dr. Rogers, congratulations on your accomplishment again. And thank you for joining us on the second episode. For those folks that are just listening to this one, we'll make sure we link in the show notes a link back to the first episode where we had you on. So good luck! I'm sure we're gonna cross paths again. And we can't wait to hear what's next for you!

Jasmine Rogers: 41:20

Thank you! Thank you so much for having me.

Susan Lambert: 41:24

Thanks so much for listening to Dr. Jasmine Rogers' return to Science of Reading: The Podcast. Check out the show notes for links to some of the resources we discussed. Since some have asked to find the show notes, try scrolling down in your podcast app . Or you can also find them on our website. Go to amplify.com/science-of-reading-the-podcast. We'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Please share your thoughts in our Facebook discussion group, Science of Reading: The Community. Science of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify. For more information on how Amplify leverages the Science of Reading, go to amplify.com/ckla. Next time on the show, Dr. Tanya Wright is going to help us delve into some best practices for literacy and vocabulary development, including with younger children.

Tanya Wright: 42:24

It doesn't have to be some special big activity, right? It doesn't have to be a trip to the zoo. It could be walking around the neighborhood, and talking about what we see, and what we notice. And that's wonderful, right? Let's see what's going on with the squirrels in our neighborhood.

Susan Lambert: 42:40

That's coming up next time . Don't miss any upcoming episodes by subscribing to Science of Reading: The Podcast wherever you find podcasts. And please, do us a favor and consider rating us, and leaving us a review. It'll help more people find the show. Thank you again for listening.